Life before birth

[Secret Chief]

How can we assess the value or output of those whose lives were cut short for example?

Only on what they did of course.
The usual example given is Mozart. Died at just 35; what if...?

 

[Meow Mix]

Those few weeks are still a worry for me. It still comes across as the ending of a viable life.

Nearly all abortions are performed before even 12 weeks (Nine out of 10 abortions done before 12 weeks in many high-income countries | BMJ)

 

[Mock Turtle]

Nearly all abortions are performed before even 12 weeks (Nine out of 10 abortions done before 12 weeks in many high-income countries | BMJ)

I've never had any opposition to abortion - judging the health and welfare of any prospective mother as being as much or more important than any child that might be born - but the development of any foetus is something I can't really have an input over as to when they should or should not be terminated. That is basically my dilemma.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The 2015 study cited is third trimester, well after when abortion procedures would be performed though.
Edit: Should add that third trimester is 27+ weeks, abortions are banned nearly everywhere at ~24 weeks except in the case of emergencies for the life of the mother.

You have switched to an entirely different topic. We have nice rules in India for abortion, nothing is written in stone, and we leave the final decision to our Supreme Court.
Abortion in India - Wikipedia

 

[Meow Mix]

I've never had any opposition to abortion - judging the health and welfare of any prospective mother as being as much or more important than any child that might be born - but the development of any foetus is something I can't really have an input over as to when they should or should not be terminated. That is basically my dilemma.

I’m not comfortable at all after 20 weeks myself, when it comes to personal hot takes.

 

[Mock Turtle]

I’m not comfortable at all after 20 weeks myself, when it comes to personal hot takes.

It's just one of those areas of doubt one has to live with as I see it. And often being quite painful.

 

[SalixIncendium]

I was thinking earlier if our parent aborted us early, "we" would have never existed. Which sounds common sense, of course, but from a, I guess, philosophical perspective I wonder if this where the case we would have another chance at existence from other parents. Kind of like being stuck in a maze with multiple exits. Some are fake exits while others are not.

I, in my true nature, am immutable and exist eternally, but, as I see it, the gross and subtle bodies are subject to causality. If I am aborted, I obviously won't experience anything beyond being aborted as that body/mind complex, but that doesn't mean I, in my true nature, don't exist.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I, in my true nature, am immutable exist eternally, but, as I see it, the gross and subtle bodies are subject to causality. If I am aborted, I obviously won't experience anything beyond being aborted as that body/mind complex, but that doesn't mean I, in my true nature, don't exist.

What is your true self? The nature of it?

 

[Clara Tea]

I was thinking earlier if our parent aborted us early, "we" would have never existed. Which sounds common sense, of course, but from a, I guess, philosophical perspective I wonder if this where the case we would have another chance at existence from other parents. Kind of like being stuck in a maze with multiple exits. Some are fake exits while others are not.

The Christian Judaeo bibles seem, in some ways, to support the concept of reincarnation. Many other religions around the world also support it. If so, early death would mean early rebirth. Perhaps, then, there is not as much harm to the spirit as one might think.

From a human body standpoint (as opposed to soul), life is filled with bullies. You first see a hulking bully, several times your height, pulling you out of the comfy womb into a cold and sterile environment. A cadre of experts are chatting to each other in a language that you can't understand. They are stronger, and far more educated (they can speak a language, and some are doctors). They believe that babies don't feel pain.....oh yeah.....wanna bet? They clear our lungs by dangling us upside down by the feet and swatting our rumps. Put up your dukes doc....just try that again. Hmm....short arms....won't reach....only thing left is to pee on him.

From the day of inception we compete with millions of sperm and there is only one lucky winner....and that one is us....we are incredibly lucky. Then we must compete with hulking intelligent brutes. Some have the notion that we don't have a right to live.

We may not have money, or shoes, or underpants....but we have parents (some want to kill us with abortion)...but at least we have life....it is ours, and it is the only thing that we've got. Who are they to take it away?

Do they blame us for conception? I thought that our parents, grunting in passion, conceived us. Don't they have at least some shared blame? Is all of the blame ours? Is there original sin for causing our mothers labor pains? It seems to me that our parents started the pregnancy process, and we had very little to do with it.

Moms say that it is there body, and the fetus is part of their body. Once we take up residency in mom, it seems to me that our landlords have a right to provide services....nutrients to grow...warmth....life.

Is abortion a mere alternative to contraceptives? Can't find a condom....oh well....lets make then abort a baby.

Could we bring the baby to full term and find someone to adopt it? There are a lot of eager adults wanting babies. Some don't want to go through labor pains. Some are sterile. But adoption has never been difficult.

If we are just part of mom's body before birth, and not separate entities with our own special rights, then nothing would prevent a doctor from removing us from the womb, cutting off our arms and legs, then putting us back into the womb again (to be born later armless and legless). Why consider such a ludicrous idea? Because we can explore the idea that depriving a fetus of limbs is not quite as bad as depriving it of life (aka abortion).

In other words, there is such a thing as potential life (limbs would potentially grow if not aborted....and a baby would potentially be created if allowed to grow).

Snuffing out potential life might be murder. It depends on how you define life. Does life begin a conception or when there is brain activity or at a certain number of months of pregnancy?

Some aborted fetuses continue to live after being aborted. Though mentally and physically damaged, and sometimes blind for life, doctors are required, by law, to keep them alive. Alive to live lives as vegetables, suffering every minute. The alternative is to murder a live birthed baby. Perhaps, then, abortions should not be allowed if there is any possibility of survival of the fetus after birth.

Why do laws exist to allow abortion of babies who are actually born?

 

[SalixIncendium]

What is your true self? The nature of it?

Satcitananda (existence/consciousness/bliss). I am Brahman.

 

[Clara Tea]

This sounds like it's directed at people that believe in things like souls, but I'll offer my perspective just so it exists in the discussion.

I don't think fetuses have the properties necessary to be "us" in the first place, though they do have the potentiality to be an "us." I think personhood is something that develops with emergent properties like sense of self, sapience, sentience, etc.

Perhaps the potential to become sentient is enough to bar abortion?

 

[firedragon]

This sounds like it's directed at people that believe in things like souls, but I'll offer my perspective just so it exists in the discussion.

I don't think fetuses have the properties necessary to be "us" in the first place, though they do have the potentiality to be an "us." I think personhood is something that develops with emergent properties like sense of self, sapience, sentience, etc.

This is purely my personal opinion, because in this particular matter you spoke of, I have not read any studies. Pure assumption.

I think that babies are born some kind of sense. It is strange that they have a particular personality on the day they are born. Immediately you see something in them that differentiates them between one another. And when they grow up, kind of instinctively you feel "ah I remember" when you see some character traits. As soon as the child is born you have seen something that reminds you of this growing child later on.

But I dont know when that develops in the womb. I would like to hear some insights.

 

[Meow Mix]

Perhaps the potential to become sentient is enough to bar abortion?

Some would argue this; I don’t see how it’s different from an unfertilized egg or a sperm also having potential though.

I have this intuition that the question becomes more and more of a moral question as gestation increases: intuitively, if I were to choose between saving a baby or 100 fertilized embryos, I’d save the baby without hesitation.

Intuitively, if I had to choose between saving a 24-week fetus and saving a 9-week fetus, I’d save the 24-week fetus. So there is at least a scale of moral impetus involved.

So I become increasingly uncomfortable with abortion as gestation increases, where the line between a fetus having sapience and sentience (and so the properties of personhood and moral impetus) increases: at a certain point, adding grains of sand becomes a heap in other words.

Add in considerations for the mother’s bodily autonomy, health, and so on, and I arrive to a pro-choice position, with deep misgivings for later term abortions. Thankfully, nearly all of them are well before any signs of sapience/sentience.

 

[Clara Tea]

This would make me wonder, since these things are from the mind, if one was born with mental health condition where the sense of self and identity are near non-existent or haven't matured, without such we'd be just animals living by instinct. This is assuming that we can't be who we are without the mind which no longer exist once the brain dies.

As the Oz scarecrow said....lots of people talk without brains.

 

[Clara Tea]

This is purely my personal opinion, because in this particular matter you spoke of, I have not read any studies. Pure assumption.

I think that babies are born some kind of sense. It is strange that they have a particular personality on the day they are born. Immediately you see something in them that differentiates them between one another. And when they grow up, kind of instinctively you feel "ah I remember" when you see some character traits. As soon as the child is born you have seen something that reminds you of this growing child later on.

But I dont know when that develops in the womb. I would like to hear some insights.

Undoubtedly a fetus can hear inside the womb. Likely it can learn before being born.

 

[Clara Tea]

I've never had any opposition to abortion - judging the health and welfare of any prospective mother as being as much or more important than any child that might be born - but the development of any foetus is something I can't really have an input over as to when they should or should not be terminated. That is basically my dilemma.

Mothers with terminal illness won't live long. A baby could live a full life (if allowed).

 

[Clara Tea]

Some would argue this; I don’t see how it’s different from an unfertilized egg or a sperm also having potential though.

I have this intuition that the question becomes more and more of a moral question as gestation increases: intuitively, if I were to choose between saving a baby or 100 fertilized embryos, I’d save the baby without hesitation.

Intuitively, if I had to choose between saving a 24-week fetus and saving a 9-week fetus, I’d save the 24-week fetus. So there is at least a scale of moral impetus involved.

So I become increasingly uncomfortable with abortion as gestation increases, where the line between a fetus having sapience and sentience (and so the properties of personhood and moral impetus) increases: at a certain point, adding grains of sand becomes a heap in other words.

Add in considerations for the mother’s bodily autonomy, health, and so on, and I arrive to a pro-choice position, with deep misgivings for later term abortions. Thankfully, nearly all of them are well before any signs of sapience/sentience.

I agree about saving the baby vs. 100 embryos. I can't understand why and can't justify my position. The embryos will be babies (time is the only factor).

If potential for life is considered, one must save millions of sperm and hundreds of eggs. (population explosion).

One must watch while stepping (squish worms, ants, microbes).

One of the biggest drawbacks to desalination in California is damaging eggs in the ocean. But the ocean is filled with millions of them, most of which will not grow to be organisms, and there are plenty of them to take the place of destroyed eggs. If we don't take water from the ocean, land creatures will be harmed to supply water to Los Angeles.

 

[leroy]

I was thinking earlier if our parent aborted us early, "we" would have never existed. Which sounds common sense, of course, but from a, I guess, philosophical perspective I wonder if this where the case we would have another chance at existence from other parents. Kind of like being stuck in a maze with multiple exits. Some are fake exits while others are not.

Interesting question,

In my view you are “your mind” your mind is what gives you your identity, if I change your body, even if I change your genes you will still be you .

So the question would be “what happens with your mind if you are aborted?... nobody knows which means that the door is open for any possibilities

 

[Aupmanyav]

I, in my true nature, am immutable exist eternally, but, as I see it, the gross and subtle bodies are subject to causality. If I am aborted, I obviously won't experience anything beyond being aborted as that body/mind complex, but that doesn't mean I, in my true nature, don't exist.

Spoken like a true advaitist.

What is your true self? The nature of it?

See his label. The English transliteration is "Aham Brahmasmi" meaning "I am Brahman". All that exists is Brahman, there is no exception, there is no second. If you ask us 'Advaitists', you too are that.
Nature? Brahman is eternal, there is no birth or death for it, Brahman is not involved in the affairs of the world, Brahman is form-free which means it can exist in any form and it is changeless. It definitely is not a God. What we do not know is whether there is any difference in existence and non-existence for Brahman. IMHO. Salix, is that correct?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Spoken like a true advaitist.See his label. The English transliteration is "Aham Brahmasmi" meaning "I am Brahman". All that exists is Brahman, there is no exception, there is no second. If you ask us 'Advaitists', you too are that.
Nature? Brahman is eternal, there is no birth or death for it, Brahman is not involved in the affairs of the world, Brahman is form-free which means it can exist in any form and it is changeless. It definitely is not a God. What we do not know is whether there is any difference in existence and non-existence for Brahman. IMHO. Salix, is that correct?

What is "It" that shares these attributes (noun to the adjectives)?