• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Life before birth

firedragon

Veteran Member
You are welcome to your views in spite of my listing differences.

You mean differences between what you perceive is someone else's idea of God between the eika brahman sankalpana. Differences dont make one not God just by default "because this is a bit different". Also saying these are differences shows that there are concepts you have to still understand a bit.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
In Islam, all souls are believed to have been created in adult form (before earthly life) at the same time God created the father of mankind, Adam.

This one is a latter developed theory that came up in Ibn Taimiyyas apologetics on theodicy. In early times of post Muhammedan Islam, it was the Safii school of thought that spoke of the wilful admission to this life of humans who are then inserted into humanity at intervals. Then the Hanbalis also adopted it. But not necessarily the early Hanafi's or the Maliki's.

Thus, these theological matters have a lot of nuances. Nevertheless, the actual text of this in the Qur'an is speaking of an innate nature all humans possess of knowing a divinity exists. Thanks for reminding. The verbosity of this verse shows that it is communicating in the form of nature, not like a verbal statement. As in, it is describing a nature. Humans are born with Fitra. Its an amazing thing. Today research shows this vividly.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Do you believe animals have thoughts and reflect on its experiences?
They do have thought. Run hundreds of miles to get to home, are more attached to a particular member of the family (talking about dogs). And I am sure they relfect also, like the predators, on how and where to corner the prey. Saw a video or a lioness following a depression to get near the antelopes and not to be seen easily by the prey. It is not that animals do not have intelligence.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Is God a deity?

Some people would say so. Some others would not. Also it would depend on the language I suppose. ITs not so easily answered in my opinion and from my point of view.

For example, if you are referring to the word "deity" and the word "God" in English, some people would worship some creature as God and others would refer to a third party God as a deity. If you consider a Buddha story of lets say the God with a 1000 eyes who comes to rescue the Buddha from shame, he is called Devi (not like in Indian languages where Devi is a female goddess. This is pronounced Devi like pronouncing Demi or Them without dragging the "e". Devi is a God). So he is "a god". But others will consider him a deity which is a third party reference.

Yet may I ask why you asked?
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
I was thinking earlier if our parent aborted us early, "we" would have never existed. Which sounds common sense, of course, but from a, I guess, philosophical perspective I wonder if this where the case we would have another chance at existence from other parents. Kind of like being stuck in a maze with multiple exits. Some are fake exits while others are not.
Nope. If your parents did not not mate there, at exactly those physical conditions, you would not exists now.
You are, de-facto, the product os physical contingencies.

Ciao

- viole
 

SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
Some people would say so. Some others would not. Also it would depend on the language I suppose. ITs not so easily answered in my opinion and from my point of view.

For example, if you are referring to the word "deity" and the word "God" in English, some people would worship some creature as God and others would refer to a third party God as a deity. If you consider a Buddha story of lets say the God with a 1000 eyes who comes to rescue the Buddha from shame, he is called Devi (not like in Indian languages where Devi is a female goddess. This is pronounced Devi like pronouncing Demi or Them without dragging the "e". Devi is a God). So he is "a god". But others will consider him a deity which is a third party reference.

Yet may I ask why you asked?

I asked to help you to understand why @Aupmanyav and I don’t call (Nirguna) Brahman God.

In each of examples you state above, you offer a dualistic view of God. In other words, God is something observed or revered separate from Self. Per Advaita, Self is Brahman, so there is no such dichotomy.

I don’t use the term god when referring to Brahman, as it often leads to misunderstanding or confusion, as not many have such a nondualistic view.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
Mothers with terminal illness won't live long. A baby could live a full life (if allowed).
True, so that would probably be taken into account by those more thoughtful, as long as such a child had a decent chance in life. Fortunately not my issue to decide.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Nope. If your parents did not not mate there, at exactly those physical conditions, you would not exists now.
You are, de-facto, the product os physical contingencies.

Ciao

- viole

Wouldn't it be interesting if we didn't exist at that point in time but in a later circumstance we would?
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I was thinking earlier if our parent aborted us early, "we" would have never existed. Which sounds common sense, of course, but from a, I guess, philosophical perspective I wonder if this where the case we would have another chance at existence from other parents. Kind of like being stuck in a maze with multiple exits. Some are fake exits while others are not.

I believe in reincarnation so I believe an aborted child would get another chance at life. I believe the book The Search for Bridey Murphy portrays that. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0045U9UI4/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
This sounds like it's directed at people that believe in things like souls, but I'll offer my perspective just so it exists in the discussion.

I don't think fetuses have the properties necessary to be "us" in the first place, though they do have the potentiality to be an "us." I think personhood is something that develops with emergent properties like sense of self, sapience, sentience, etc.

I believe spirits have personalities of their own.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Personally, I strongly believe that we all existed prior to our birth here on earth, just not as physical beings with mortal bodies. I believe that the spirit that gives life to our body was created by God long before our physical body was conceived by our parents, and that we lived as God's spirit offspring with Him in Heaven prior to coming to earth.

I believe since God created all things that He created spirits as well. I believe we have no evidence of when and where.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I asked to help you to understand why @Aupmanyav and I don’t call (Nirguna) Brahman God.

In each of examples you state above, you offer a dualistic view of God. In other words, God is something observed or revered separate from Self. Per Advaita, Self is Brahman, so there is no such dichotomy.

I don’t use the term god when referring to Brahman, as it often leads to misunderstanding or confusion, as not many have such a nondualistic view.

Thats the reason I spoke of language. Its just a reference. Can you say "Brahman is not God" just because Brahman is one, not looking for worship, is formless, is not two? Thats the question.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
@firedragon , did you reply to my question? I asked you - "Are you Allah (since you are a Muslim)?" I will like to get the answer. Yes or No.
Ask me - "Are you Brahman?" And I will unhesitatingly answer - "Yes, I am 100% Brahman and none else."
Do you see the difference now?
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
@firedragon , did you reply to my question? I asked you - "Are you Allah (since you are a Muslim)?" I will like to get the answer. Yes or No.
Ask me - "Are you Brahman?" And I will unhesitatingly answer - "Yes, I am 100% Brahman and none else."
Do you see the difference now?

See, that is not relevant. My beliefs dont matter to the question of Brahman. I have already stated this.

So lets say you are 100% brahman as in the fundamental understanding of monism. Still, how would that claim "Brahman is not God"? So you are also God. Or is it this term "God" that's interrupting your thought process?
 

SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
Thats the reason I spoke of language. Its just a reference. Can you say "Brahman is not God" just because Brahman is one, not looking for worship, is formless, is not two? Thats the question.

Unless everyone agrees that God has no qualities and there is no dichotomy between Self and God, I see no point in an argument for calling Brahman God.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
No, I am not God. I did not create the universe, I did not create humankind, I do not want to be worshiped. I do not create rules of life. I do not judge people after death. I do not send them to heaven or hell. I do not resurrect people after death. I cannot rent the moon. I cannot move the mountains. I did not send prophets / sons/ messengers / manifestations / mahdis to the world. I do not provide sustenance to animals and humans. I cannot cause drought or flood. I cannot cause Tsunami or earthquakes. Tell me, in what way I am God?
I am the stuff of the universe, I am Brahman.
 
Last edited:

firedragon

Veteran Member
Unless everyone agrees that God has no qualities and there is no dichotomy between Self and God, I see no point in an argument for calling Brahman God.

Okay. So your philosophy seems to be Advaita. No problem. I was only responding to a claim "Brahman is not God". There is no way to prove that, no matter what qualities you could attribute or remove. I was not proposing that Brahman is God. I was asking for clear reasons why not, and showing that the proposition is challenging a caricature of God. Athman is not in this discussion. And if you propose that supreme reality and the Athman is just one, I am not addressing that problem. I am asking why should the brahman be definitely "not God"? It may not be similar to the average Islamic conception of God, but making that distinction does not still deem Brahman is "not God". Anyway, there were Islamic philosophers like Ibn Arabi who made the same exact claim made in the Advaita claim. Everything is God. So when people make this kind of distinction it is because of a little lack of these matters.

I hope you try and understand. I know that Hindu philosophy is very wide and deep so I dont mind understanding any further.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
No, I am not God. I did not create the universe, I did not create humankind, I do not want to be worshiped. I do not create rules of life. I do not judge people after death. I do not send them to heaven or hell. I do not resurrect people after death. I cannot rent the moon. I cannot move the mountains. I did not send prophets / sons/ messengers / manifestations / mahdis to the world. I do not provide sustenance to animals and humans. I cannot cause drought or flood. I cannot cause Tsunami or earthquakes. Tell me, in what way I am God?
I am the stuff of the universe, I am Brahman.

Caricature. Dont compare with other peoples Gods and say "Brahman is not God". ;)

In what way are you God? I will speak from the Hindu perspective. The whole universe is manifestation of God. So you are God.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
No, I am not God. I did not create the universe, I did not create humankind, I do not want to be worshiped. I do not create rules of life. I do not judge people after death. I do not send them to heaven or hell. I do not resurrect people after death. I cannot rent the moon. I cannot move the mountains. I did not send prophets / sons/ messengers / manifestations / mahdis to the world. I do not provide sustenance to animals and humans. I cannot cause drought or flood. I cannot cause Tsunami or earthquakes. Tell me, in what way I am God?
I am the stuff of the universe, I am Brahman.


Does your last question not answer the one that precedes it?
 
Top