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Featured Life before birth

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Unveiled Artist, Sep 7, 2021.

  1. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    I am equally in love with Bible and Kitab-i-Aqdas also. You might have noticed. :D
     
  2. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    You are in love with insulting religions, that I do know. But you dont have knowledge in any of these scriptures or books you try to speak of.

    None of this is relevant Aup. Why are you so obsessed with talking about other people and their matters and all the other stuff when the discussion was on Brahman?
     
  3. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    Depends on the turn of discussion. I love to talk about Hindu scriptures also.
     
  4. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Okay, so let's look at that passage. In my KJV it reads, "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." To me, that's talking about the future, and saying that no one has been received into Heaven except for Jesus. You probably believe that as soon as a person died, he goes to Heaven, but I don't. I believe the spirit resides in a peaceful realm of joy and rest until the time for the judgment, and that it is only after we receive our resurrected bodies that we go to Heaven.

    I can also think of a couple of passages that kind of hint at the pre-mortal existence of man, but unless you're interested, I'm not going to bother posting them. I'm really not a person who finds arguing doctrine enjoyable. :)
     
  5. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Do you believe our spirits are eternal? Did they pre-exist our physical bodies?
     
  6. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    John 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven— the Son of Man.
    More modern translations usually have better scriptures to translate from and so differ from the KJV, which has errors.
    To me Jesus was talking about things that have happened. Even before Jesus became a man He had ascended to heaven, initially after creating earth.
    To me John 3:13 says that Jesus is the only one who has descended from heaven.
    I believe in a place of the dead also for the souls of the dead but it seems that after Jesus the souls of those who died in Christ go to be with the Lord. Paul seems to teach (Phil 1:22-24) that and Revelation speaks of the souls of the martyrs under the altar. (Rev 6:9-17)
    Also Jesus brings with Him those who have fallen asleep in Christ (1Thess 4:14) and then they are resurrected with glorified bodies.
    Thanks for the little talk. I'm a doctrinal arguing sort of person so I guess it is good to stop here. :)
     
  7. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    One last comment... John 3:13 talks about no one "ascending" into heaven, not "descending" from heaven.
     
  8. Bird123

    Bird123 Well-Known Member

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    OK. do you have a good memory?? Find a nice quiet place away from all distractions. Think really hard. What was the very first thing in your life that you remember?
    The Installation??

    It will be something that seems normal with no stress at all. It will be something that you would not think anything about until you were much much older.

    The Spiritual and physical connect is in the brain and not in the heart as many might think. It happens after birth when long term memories start to become possible. This is at very very young age so it might take some real work to remember this far back.

    Can you tell the difference between your physical self and who you really are ( a Spiritual Being)?
    Find a nice quiet dark comfortable place away from all distractions. Focus inward. Say to yourself: It's Me. That is who you really are.

    If you are still having trouble, seek out the very youngest of children. Many can still tell the difference. They need to be very young because this physical world supplies so much sensory input that it isn't long before one is seduced into thinking this physical world is all there is.

    Discovery takes work. On the other hand, I think everyone is capable of Discovering something. Still, each chooses for themselves what they want to learn and discover.

    Yes, we are Spiritual beings in our true natures. I have direct experience to this.

    That's what I see. It's very clear!!
     
  9. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    That was a very long answer to two yes or no questions. I'm assuming that your "yes" was an answer to both of my questions.
     
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  10. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    John 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven— the Son of Man.

    To me it says that only one person has ascended into heaven and that is the one who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.
    It does not say when that one ascended but we can see times in the OT where He was sent from heaven and ascended to heaven imo.
    Anyway it says to me that only the Son of Man has descended from heaven.
    Of course that means that Elijah and Enoch did not go to the heaven of the heavens (and the Bible does not say they did anyway)
     
  11. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I see John 9:1-3 as being very relevant to this topic. Most people won't, because they will look right at the clue and miss it.

    John 9:1-3 "And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him."

    Almost everyone who reads this will zero in on Jesus' answer, and fail to pick up on the significance of (1) the disciples' question and (2) what Jesus did not say in response. Those who are willing to look deeper will learn something new.

    Looking at my first point: We know that the man in question was born blind. We know Jesus' disciples assumed that his blindness was a punishment for someone's sin. We know that they considered the possibility that his parents might have sinned and had been punished by having given birth to a blind child.

    But, the disciples thought it might have been the blind man himself who had sinned. If he'd been blind since birth, though, when could he have sinned if not prior to his birth?

    Now, examining Jesus' answer and specifically what He did not say... He answered by telling His disciples that the man's blindness was not a result of sin -- either the man's or his parents' -- but that he had been born blind so that the works of God could be manifest. He did not correct His disciples and say, "Well, I can see how you might come to the conclusion that the man was born blind because of a sin his parents had committed, but what on earth could you possibly be thinking in assuming that the man's blindness was a result of his own sin? When do you think he could conceivably have sinned if he was born blind? He didn't even exist before his birth!"

    A belief in the pre-mortal life of human beings was widely believed at this time. In this example, it was just part of what Jesus' disciples had always believed. Now Jesus could have easily put the kabash on that notion if it were, in fact, a false doctrine. He didn't correct their reasoning or assumptions that the man could have sinned prior to being born, and that is truly significant, in my opinion.

    Another passage that I think is worth noting is Ecclesiastes 12:7, which states: "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."

    You can't "return" to someplace you've never been before. Your body will return to the earth and your spirit will return to God. If your spirit had never been with God before, it could go to be with God but it could not "return" to Him. Heaven is where your spirit originated. If God is in heaven, then we were once there, too.
     
  12. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Eccles 12:7. God is everywhere and the spirit returning to God means into His care imo. The spirit after death goes to the place of the souls that, hades/sheol. (things seemed to have changed after Jesus rose and the souls of those in Christ go to be with Him) At the time of Jesus that is what the story was, to sheol.
    Some people divide up spirit and soul but imo the spirit we get at birth is a life force which becomes our soul in the body and grows as we grow to become the essence of what/who we are.
    Nevertheless either way, the spirit is not a person who came down from heaven and returns there.
    John 9:1-3 had me thinking as I had never thought of it in the way you presented.
    I have never heard that the Jews may have thought that people pre existed in heaven before coming to earth. The Book of Wisdom of Solomon, of disputed canonicity and not in Protestant Bibles, has a verse that suggests pre existence of the soul however.
    I thought that the disciples may have thought that the blindness was for sins that the person was going to commit. That doesn't sound right or fair however.
    Then I realised if it is what you suggest then the person must have been sinning in heaven. I don't think this is right and doubt that you think that either, or maybe you do.
    I started to consider reincarnation and that some prominent Jews have thought that to be a reality, but that does not need the person to go back to heaven, just to sheol for while and then return to be born again.
    Heb 9:27 contradicts this idea of reincarnation also.
    Apart from this if what you say about John 9:13 was correct then it would imo contradict John 3:13
    John 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven— the Son of Man.
    There is only one who has descended from heaven, the Son of Man, and He also had ascended and descended in OT times.
     
  13. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe you are not Brahmin when it means God but you are at lest partially Brahmin (Knowing about God) in knowing about God.
     
  14. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe that is false. God is not the stuff of the Universe.
     
  15. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe I agree with most of this but the idea that the origin is Heaven. I know I came down from Heaven but not everyone goes there when they die. I suppose the idea is that God is in Heaven but that is not the only place because God is everywhere. So God can give a person a new life no matter where they are and in truth we are never separated from God not even in Hell.
     
  16. Wildswanderer

    Wildswanderer Well-Known Member

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    But abortion still removes all that potential.
     
  17. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    I am a brahmin and Brahman. Even a Shudra is Brahman and none other. That is why Sankara bowed to the 'candala', lowest in social hierarchy, a person banished from the society for a most heinous crime such as killing a teacher or a parent, or rape (if you know the story).
     
  18. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    I am an atheist, and atheist do not believe in existence of any God or Goddess.
     
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