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Featured Let’s talk about the Bible

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Vee, Nov 1, 2017.

  1. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    If the Bible isn't the word of God and not Holy, then all we have are people giving their opinion of what they believe it to say. And if we are not to lean on anyone's understanding, we are just SOL right?
     
  2. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    OK. You are not holy.........therefore worthless. How's that?
     
  3. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    Opinion is not always bad. You know that!
     
  4. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    Do you listen to yourself? I should shoot myself dead if @Jayhawker Soule has me on ignore, but not you.
     
  5. Gerry

    Gerry Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for all the interesting information.
    I just got back on after a few days off.
    You’ve given me something to work on now.
     
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  6. Gerry

    Gerry Well-Known Member

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    I enjoy your thoughtful responses Metis.
    I have a question.
    If the church admits it’s a mystery beyond the comprehension of all humans, then why did humans try to make a trinity in the first place?
    Why not just have God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.
    And leave it alone?
     
  7. MonkeyFire

    MonkeyFire Well-Known Member

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    Words are things. Like Faith, and Knowledge.
     
  8. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    If you have the Father, Jesus and Holy Spirit as separate Gods, you have polytheism which is anathema to the historic church, because there is only one God.

    You could have one God operating in different modes...Father, Jesus, and Holy Spirit (Sebellianism/modalism), but any exegesis is unsound...for instance you run into problems where we find Jesus praying to himself.

    You could also make the Father a big God, Jesus a junior God and junk the deity of the Spirit, but that still leaves leave your church with one too many Gods, or another polytheistic theology.

    To my knowledge, Trinitarianism is the only theological doctrine that adequately explains the myriad scriptural claims of Jesus' deity without running afoul of other scripture. If there is a better theological construct that explains the NT claims of Jesus, I haven't found it.

    Once I put aside "proof texting" and engaged in a careful exegesis of scripture, I gradually came kicking and screaming to the doctrine of the Trinity.
     
  9. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    With all due respect KJW, that is simply not true. Don’t you test assertions before putting them out there?

    If you touch this, you will burn your hand.

    If you lie to me again, I will leave.

    If you listen you will learn.

    If x is true then y is untrue.

    If y >=x, what is the value of x?

    The value of IF in the arts, sciences, math, culture…everywhere there is creative thought… is immeasurable. Without "ifs" we lack inventiveness, strategy, and planning, as well as the capacity to perform critical analysis.

    But again, that may be the point. The Watchtower does not invite Berean thinking, so it may be just one more thing Witnesses are asked to park at their local Kingdom Hall door.

    I hope I'm wrong on this but your statement implies otherwise.
     
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  10. Gerry

    Gerry Well-Known Member

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    I never said there were three gods.
    The Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are three separate and different entities.
    The Father is God.
    Jesus is Jesus.
    The Holy Spirit is God’s Spirit.
    I’m comfortable with that.
    No humans need try to make a mystery of God into something that may or may not be so.
     
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  11. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    I'm not aware of anyone who claims you did.

    I am saying there are 3 Gods, if you have the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit as separate Gods.

    That's fine if it works for you but as a Trinitarian it would leave me uncomfortable because I wouldn't be able to reconcile such a belief with New Testament scripture.

    7 “Can you fathom the mysteries of God? Can you probe the limits of the Almighty?
    8They are higher than the heavens above—what can you do? They are deeper than the depths below—what can you know? (Job 11)​

    The only way I know of taking the mystery out of God is to create one in our own image like the pagans did. So while we would then have a God we completely understand it just wouldn't be the God as described by scripture.
     
  12. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Jesus meant he and his Father were 'one', in the sense of unity:

    John 17:22

    Yet trinitarians continue to misapply Jesus' statement at John 10:30, even tho He explained the oneness they shared in John 17:21-22.
    It's obvious what Jesus meant.

    If they twist that passage, they'll twist others.
     
    #192 Hockeycowboy, Nov 6, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2017
  13. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    But it is; there were quite a few in ancient times.

    Triple deity - Wikipedia
     
  14. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Of course the CC wouldn't 'justify their belief' in a trinity by using pagan sources! Vee never said nor implied that. Neither do Jehovah's Witnesses. But the origin of trinity gods is pagan.
     
  15. kjw47

    kjw47 Well-Known Member

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    Him getting the crown, proves 100% it is Jesus. Your darkness prevents your seeing.
     
  16. kjw47

    kjw47 Well-Known Member

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    Catholicism allowed 0 of the flock to read the bible for 1000 years after the councils were held. It was kept in latin. only upper clergy were allowed to read it. Once men were allowed to read--they ran from Catholicism--no originals existed when the protestants translated--only Catholicism translating remained. They had 0 clue by then what was truth. Catholicism surely did not or do not have it.
     
  17. kjw47

    kjw47 Well-Known Member

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    If = 0
    action = 100%
     
  18. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    @djhwoodwerks maybe you are the son of parents who choose censo
    He got it! Why does the governing body believe that he should get two?
    All authority (which if pictured is a CROWN) was given him before he ascended to Heaven. Then, you say he got another crown in the time of the end. Tell us, please, what is he going to do with two crowns? What's the other one for?
     
  19. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    If all authority doesn't mean a crown, what does a crown mean?

    That's right, that's math!

    Actually, according to the Jehovah's Witnesses, Jesus was downgraded as pictured at Revelation 6:2.
    The reason being is that he had ALL authority given him before, and now his authority is with the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses [only]. That is a major downgrade.

    Now they teach that anyone who will not accept his authority through the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses will be killed. And, it seems as though they think that Jesus will do the killing.

    If it wasn't a very, very serious problem, it would be funny.
     
  20. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    @kjw47 what does the crown picture?
     
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