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Featured Let’s talk about the Bible

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Vee, Nov 1, 2017.

  1. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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  2. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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  3. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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  4. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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  5. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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  6. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    Anyway, there is no denying that according to the Watchtower, a crown does not mean Jesus.
     
  7. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    Oh, bother, why did they put crowns on their heads? Now what? More gunfire. I am sure.
     
  8. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Your welcome, and thank you for your responses.

    Probably because the connection was so vague in the 1st century church that it needed to be explained later, especially when "heretical" churches began to view Jesus in different ways with some saying he was just human like any other to those who felt he was entirely divine and that only his appearance appeared to be that of a human.

    These controversies were also why creeds were developed, which basically said that that this was the basics of what one must believe.

    IOW, "necessity is the mother of invention".
     
  9. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Just because there are similarities doesn't mean nor imply that one led to the other. Just because I look a lot like George Clooney:rolleyes: doesn't make me George Clooney.
     
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  10. djhwoodwerks

    djhwoodwerks Well-Known Member

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    What does that mean?
     
  11. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Seeing you have No clue who Paul was exactly.
    Paul was a Israelite of the tribe of Benjamin.
    Therefore Paul was not Greek as you say.
    Paul's father was a Pharisee, As was Paul a Pharisee.
    And it was Christ Jesus himself who chosen Paul to be one of the disciples.

    Maybe you need to get your facts right before you say anything.
     
  12. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Before making such an allegation and accepting it as fact, one needs to establish that there's some sort of actual connection, and I don't know of a single Catholic, Anglican, or Protestant theologian who believes for one minute that this "pagan" concept directly led to the trinitarian concept. Quote the reverse since we see debates in the 2nd century dealing with Jesus' exact relationship with God, and nowhere in my studies have I ever run across any of the patriarchs formulating or justifying it as being from "pagan" sources. Yes, religions learn from each other, no doubt, but I simply have never seen the connection to "pagan" sources made on this item.

    IOW, one needs to establish that some sort of "smoking gun" that clearly shows that the early church copied this from "Pagan Religion X", and nowhere have I seen any such a connection made.
     
  13. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    That was then, this is now, and your JW emulates what the CC did by forbidding you to attend other churches, and also by telling its congregants that they should not read non-JW religious articles and books.
     
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  14. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Maybe you need to learn the difference between fact and claim.
     
  15. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    But that's not what the 1st century church believed, such as what we can even detect in Paul's writings that elevate Jesus well beyond what we see being referred to as a prophet. If one reads references to the prophets in the Tanakh, and then we compare them to references to Jesus in the NT and especially Paul's writings, there are significant differences. Even John 3:16 shows this. No prophet, including Moses, is ever referred to in these kind of terms.
     
  16. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
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    @kjw47 That the Watchtower shows kings with crowns proves that having been given a crown
    does not prove Jesus rides at Revelation 6:2.
    That your kind are making the governing body right about Revelation 6:2 proves to me that it is
    governing body believers who are making them right and NOT Jehovah.

    2 Timothy 3:13 I have zero doubt that this scripture warns against what you and they are doing.
    13 But wicked men and impostors will advance from bad to worse, misleading and being misled.+

    I understand that it is wrong to call you and the governing body members "evil", but if you will look up the word, it might mean; toiling for nothing good.
     
    #216 savagewind, Nov 6, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2017
  17. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. For Trinitarians it shows unity within the Godhead.

    Let's get it right Hockeycowboy. It is not Trinitarians who misapply this verse, but Modalists. Unitarians like yourself commonly misapply Modalist to Trinitarian theology.

    If you twist Modalists into Trinitarians, you'll twist others as well.

    Come to think of it, that's pretty much what your Organization does. They throw Oneness Pentecostals, Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, and everyone but themselves into one big "false religion" pot, so we shouldn't be surprised when Witnesses are unable to make distinctions between religious theologies.
     
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  18. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    Don't you read your own sources Hockeycowboy??? From the source you just quoted:

    Christianity

    Main articles: Athanasian Creed and Trinity
    Christians profess "one God in three divine persons" (God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost).

    This is not to be understood as a belief in (or worship of) three Gods, nor as a belief that there are three subjectively-perceived "aspects" in one God, both of which the Church condemns as heresy.

    The Church also rejects the notions that God is "composed" of its three persons and that "God" is a genus containing the three persons.​

    Obviously, if you can twist Tritheism with Trinitarianism, you can twist others as well.
     
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  19. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Maybe You need to learn the difference between fact and claim, Yourself.
     
  20. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    That is correct. Jesus has unity with the Father but it doesn't stop there. Trinitarianism is the doctrinal result of a feud between Arianism and Homoousian Christians. It would help if folks freshened up a bit on their early Christian history, preferably from a secular source since the issue appears to be "highly charged" on this forum.
     
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