Joel Osteen, con artist

[Magic Man]

Purporting to give salvation and blessings in exchange for valuables is the scam.

Does he promise those things only through him, though? It seems to me that he just tells people stuff that they want to hear so they buy his stuff. If he's telling people that if they give him money, they'll be saved, that's one thing, but I got the impression, he's not quite going that far.

Clearly, he's a piece of dirt, but I have to say that at least he's telling people that he's a dirtbag. It would be worse to me if he preached poverty and humility were the key virtues, while having all of that stuff. At least he preaches that he's supposed to have all that stuff. That's not to say that I in any way like him, just that he's one up on some other low-lives.

 

[rojse]

"You saved others, now why can't you save yourself?"

If I ever become a billionaire, I want to create a giant statue of the flying spaghetti monster.

Perhaps you could do a Joel Osteen and televangelise for one.

 

[rojse]

Does he promise those things only through him, though? It seems to me that he just tells people stuff that they want to hear so they buy his stuff. If he's telling people that if they give him money, they'll be saved, that's one thing, but I got the impression, he's not quite going that far.

But the implication is there, and implication is all that some people need.

Clearly, he's a piece of dirt, but I have to say that at least he's telling people that he's a dirtbag. It would be worse to me if he preached poverty and humility were the key virtues, while having all of that stuff. At least he preaches that he's supposed to have all that stuff. That's not to say that I in any way like him, just that he's one up on some other low-lives.

Regardless of his merits in relation to other other televangelists, he is still a piece of dirt, as you point out.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Here's the con:

When Osteen is asked how much his church brings in, and what percentage of that money goes to him, and what percentage goes to charity, he won't answer.

And while he's not answering, he still maintains the toothy smile, the charm, etc. It's so obvious he's acting. No one continues to smile, and speak in hushed, reassuring tones exactly as they always do, while evading such a question, unless they are making a conscious effort to act that way.

What could be a more obvious giveaway?

His congregants believe, I am sure, that a lot of the money they give goes to church upkeep and charity. They assume it without questioning, because he gains their confidence.

He's a con-man, a huckster, a rascal.

i don't see it. As you say, anyone with eyes can see the wealth he's accumulated. So he has not answered the question of how much goes where. At least he's not lieing about it. I still maintain that he is totally within his rights to ask for money. It is the mindset of the people who give the money that is the problem.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Actually, it would surprise me if he was really Christian.

Really? On what basis are you judging him?

 

[Storm]

i don't see it. As you say, anyone with eyes can see the wealth he's accumulated. So he has not answered the question of how much goes where. At least he's not lieing about it. I still maintain that he is totally within his rights to ask for money. It is the mindset of the people who give the money that is the problem.

Yeah, I'm with Beaudreaux. It sucks, but it's not a scam. Expecially if he's preaching the prosperity doctrine.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Purporting to give salvation and blessings in exchange for valuables is the scam.

But isn't he just reinforcing what's in the Bible? Doesn't the Bible command followers to give 10% of what they earn to the Church? Doesn't the Bible say that if you give money to the Church that you will be rewarded many times over?

If giving money to people like this guy is such a bad thing then we should look to what's wrong with the people who give, not the people who ask.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Does he promise those things only through him, though? It seems to me that he just tells people stuff that they want to hear so they buy his stuff. If he's telling people that if they give him money, they'll be saved, that's one thing, but I got the impression, he's not quite going that far.

Clearly, he's a piece of dirt, but I have to say that at least he's telling people that he's a dirtbag. It would be worse to me if he preached poverty and humility were the key virtues, while having all of that stuff. At least he preaches that he's supposed to have all that stuff. That's not to say that I in any way like him, just that he's one up on some other low-lives.

I really have to take issue with the accusation that he's a low-life, scumbag and all the other things people on this thread have called him. He points to Bible passages that tell people to give their money to the Church. If giving money to his Church is a bad thing, then it is the GIVERS of the money who are at fault, not him. If it is not the people who give the money that are bad, then it is the Bible that is bad for telling followers to give money to the Church.

Let's say I tell people that I have contacted their dead relatives and their relatives have instructed them to give me all their money. If someone actually DOES give me all their money, who is to blame? Is it me for asking for it? Or is it the person who has abandoned rational thought and decided that there is a spirit world where ancestors tell them what to do in life?

 

[Storm]

I really have to take issue with the accusation that he's a low-life, scumbag and all the other things people on this thread have called him. He points to Bible passages that tell people to give their money to the Church. If giving money to his Church is a bad thing, then it is the GIVERS of the money who are at fault, not him. If it is not the people who give the money that are bad, then it is the Bible that is bad for telling followers to give money to the Church.

Let's say I tell people that I have contacted their dead relatives and their relatives have instructed them to give me all their money. If someone actually DOES give me all their money, who is to blame? Is it me for asking for it? Or is it the person who has abandoned rational thought and decided that there is a spirit world where ancestors tell them what to do in life?

In your example, you're preying on people's grief. Osteen is preying on people's faith. I'd say both are reprehensible.

 

[OmarKhayyam]

Elmer Gantry lives on.

So - what else is new?

 

[doppelganger]

In your example, you're preying on people's grief. Osteen is preying on people's faith. I'd say both are reprehensible.

Osteen is also preying on people's grief.

 

[Beaudreaux]

In your example, you're preying on people's grief. Osteen is preying on people's faith. I'd say both are reprehensible.

I don't know about that. I've lost family members and friends and gone through a lot of grief, but I would never listen to someone telling me they talked to people in the afterlife. It is irrational belief, not grief, that is being preyed upon here, IMHO.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Osteen is also preying on people's grief.

Again, I've experienced lots of grief and never once been tempted to give money to a medium. It's not grief, but irrationality that causes people to give.

 

[Storm]

Osteen is also preying on people's grief.

And the charlatan ghost whisperers are also preying on faith. I was simplifying.

I don't know about that. I've lost family members and friends and gone through a lot of grief, but I would never listen to someone telling me they talked to people in the afterlife. It is irrational belief, not grief, that is being preyed upon here, IMHO.

1) But you don't believe in an afterlife. In such a situation, it serves as a safeguard.
2) What I said to Dopp.
3) Like God, belief in the afterlife is no more or less inherently rational than disbelief, but that's off-topic.
4) Grief can make people desperate and irrational.
5) All of the above are beside my real point, which is that it's a crappy thing to do.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

He tells people they are going to receive supernatural healing. He says his mother recovered from liver cancer supernaturally. He says they are going to receive supernatural financial and health benefits.

He says the word "supernatural" a lot.

 

[Beaudreaux]

He tells people they are going to receive supernatural healing. He says his mother recovered from liver cancer supernaturally. He says they are going to receive supernatural financial and health benefits.

He says the word "supernatural" a lot.

Do those messages compel you to give him money?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

No Beaudreaux, as I said I agree with you he isn't doing anything illegal, and that the problem is a naive mindset. I didn't respond to your previous questions because I thought I had already agreed with you on those points.

What I would add is this: how do we change this mindset? The same way you change any mindset (racism, sexism, etc.) You get people to think about it and talk about it.

 

[cardero]

No Beaudreaux, as I said I agree with you he isn't doing anything illegal, and that the problem is a naive mindset. I didn't respond to your previous questions because I thought I had already agreed with you on those points.

What I would add is this: how do we change this mindset? The same way you change any mindset (racism, sexism, etc.) You get people to think about it and talk about it.

Yes, but is this discussion still about Joel Osteen or has this topic graduated to similiar faiths promising God's grace under the guise of donations?

 

[JMorris]

its like a raffle, donate enough, and you might win a prize

 

[Buttercup]

Part of the reason I think of Joel Osteen as a con man and one who doesn't have a genuine heart for leading people to God is because he charges money for tickets to hear him speak. Did Billy Graham do this? (I'm asking seriously)

Check out how high the ticket prices are too. Ridiculous.

Joel Osteen Tickets - Bronx, Saturday 4/25/09 7:00 PM