Joel Osteen, con artist

[painted wolf]

The whole thing, statue and all is a perfect metaphor for the way American culture is heading IMHO.

Mass marketed, mass produced and hollow.

wa:do

ps... wow, I'll try to get off the cynic-kick now..

 

[Beaudreaux]

I'm not saying I think Joel Osteen is doing anything illegal.

I'm saying there should be citizens, advocacy groups, investigative journalists to warn the average person about this kind of thing.

Warn people about what kind of thing? That someone may quote the Bible and ask you for money?

Imagine the libraries, museums, infrastructure, hospitals, shelters, schools that could be built, or how much real charity work could be done, with the millions Osteen rakes in. 60 Minutes reported he gets $43 million a year from church donations, another 30 million from TV viewers, and a 13 million advance on one of the books he published. The basketball stadium - turned church cost 100 million to renovate. And then consider the time and energy the "volunteers" spend on their $1600 mission trips.

All these resources are going to one purpose: to concentrate wealth in the hands of one guy, and his descendants. We're back to the Divine Right of Kings. Of course Osteen is just one of many examples in America...

Again, Osteen is not what is wrong with this situation. I'll ask again. Is there a mindset or way of thinking that might be making the Osteens of the world possible?

 

[Imagist]

I strongly disagree with the thinking that says just because you make a lot of money off of something means your motives aren't pure.

I've seen the same criticism of karate teachers (I'm a member of the martial arts community). As soon as a karate teacher opens a second school or gets a bigger building they are criticized as "black belt farms" and "McDojos" where the goal is to get as much money from the students as possible for every little bit of knowledge. But I've sparred with karate teachers who run such schools who were very, very skilled and were very good at imparting that knowledge to their students. Some of them have even lowered their prices because the larger scale allowed them to pay less money-per-student.

Of course, I have seen a lot of scam artists posing as martial artists as well. There are plenty of hucksters in both martial arts and televangelism. But income in itself isn't evidence of wrongdoing. Just because someone is in it for the money doesn't mean that's the only reason they are in it.

As an atheist I don't have a high opinion of church leadership. I would have no problem calling Olsteen delusional, overly-extravagant, or vapid. But scam artist? I don't see justification for that.

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

Again, Osteen is not what is wrong with this situation. I'll ask again. Is there a mindset or way of thinking that might be making the Osteens of the world possible?

Yes, people seeking coherency and meaning for their lives. Somebody noted the similarity here to indulgences. I remember reading that, when the David Beckham underwear add went up in Time Square, sales went up 33%. At least people who bought indulgences thought they were getting eternity. Indulgences will also be for sale, no matter under what name.

The impulse itself, which leads to Olsteen's fortune, can't simply not be erased or out-educated. The whole of the modern era is littered with the mistakes (and successes) of newly directed quests for the authentication of the human spirit, for coherency, for meaning (whether that meaning is found in the beginning with God, in or in the future with utopia).

It's the same impulse which is driving the hundreds of thousands to hot-yoga, to buying crystal rocks and to paying for reiki. And bringing people to the churches, no doubt.

 

[ayani]

Mr. Spinkles ~

i agree with you whole-heartedly.

i have never liked Osteen, and from what i have read and heard of him, the man does little if anything to reflect Christ, or honor His calling.

this kind of Christian culture bugs me, as well. it's money-based, entertainment-based, and full of smiles and cheap words of pithy encouragement. it often treats the Bible like a secular self-help book, and Christian faith as based upon emotional highs and the blessings of wealth.

it's nonsense.

"take up your cross and follow Me" is not an easy thing to do. and i know i have a lot of planks in my eye, too. but Jesus' name has become so darn commercialized and manipulated, that almost anyone these days can use it to get famous, get praised, get selfish, and get rich.

all things which, ironically, Jesus says will keep one out of the Kingdom of Heaven.

 

[The Seeker]

[/quote]

I live 10 minutes away from "Touchdown Jesus". The funny thing is that less than a mile away on the other side of the highway from this monstrosity is a big Hustler sex shop.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Warn people about what kind of thing? That someone may quote the Bible and ask you for money?

In a word: yes.

I remember when I was in 3rd grade, we watched some videos to educate us about how toy commercials make the toys seem better than they actually are. The commercials showed remote-controlled cars leaping off ramps into the air, rolling around, etc. But when kids actually bought the toys and tested them, and tried to replicate the feats they saw on the commercials....without the loud music, and the booming voice of an announcer....suddenly, the toys didn't seem so great. They couldn't really leap 10 ft. in the air. They only lasted 20 minutes, before they had to be recharged.

They were still cool toys. Just not nearly as cool as the commercials made them seem. And I still wanted toys. I still enjoyed them.

But that educational video helped me think more rationally about the world, and make better judgments. And I probably wasn't as disappointed in the real toy, once I got my greedy hands on it, as I might have been.

That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. People need the knowledge and education to understand how they can be manipulated, so they can make better judgments. It's not really a free choice if a person subjected herself to mind manipulation without realizing it.

And furthermore, people need to realize that the money they are giving to the church is not actually going to help the poor. I think most people trust that, because it's a church, a lot of the money must be helping the poor. It isn't. Imagine how many homes Habitat for Humanity could build with $70 million per year.

Again, Osteen is not what is wrong with this situation. I'll ask again. Is there a mindset or way of thinking that might be making the Osteens of the world possible?

Oh, I agree Osteen is not the problem. There will always be Osteens in the world, the key is to create conditions that mitigate their numbers.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

And yes, Osteen is doing a service: he's telling people what they want to hear. But the reason that service is so valuable isn't because it's difficult, or time-consuming. Anyone could do what Osteen does, if their integrity didn't get in the way.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I strongly disagree with the thinking that says just because you make a lot of money off of something means your motives aren't pure.

I agree.

I've watched Joel Osteen from time to time. I kind of like him. I consider him a good motivational speaker. I imagine his congregation likes him because he makes them feel good.

It's true, he inherited the church from his father, and on one show I watched he said he intended to leave it to his son. ("Just think," he told him, "someday all this will be yours.") Religion is the family business, period. However, when I consider all the ugly, hateful, religious leaders who are raking in the cash as surely as Joel Osteen is, I think Osteen represents not a debasement of American Evangelicalism -- which is one of the worst religions in the world, in my book -- but a distinct improvement.

I mean, seriously. If he were out there stirring people up with nonsense about the Last Days, America being God's chosen nation, and the gay threat to America, then I'd have a problem with him.

Fair enough. My problem with Osteen is that he's a symbol of larger problems in our culture, as painted wolf said.

 

[porkchop]

I still say he's doing nothing wrong. I think this thread is upside down. Consider:

• This guy puts on a show and says to people that God wants them to give money to his church. He quotes scripture that backs this up.
• People watch this guy and, because they believe in God and the Bible, send him their money even if they can't afford it.

So, who's the knucklehead here? Who bears responsibility? Is there a way of thinking that might be contributing to this unfortunate situation?

What he's doing wrong is saying and doing it all in Jesus name! Misrepresentation of the Bible and what God is about, taking advantage of people so desperate for help, that they would believe anything, especially if they are christian, they are mislead into believing this man(any many others alike) cares for them and is working for God to heal and help them, its disgusting! Yes, you can say that people are naieve,im sure wev'e all been guilty of that at some point in our life.
Atleast God will be the judge of them when the time comes and they will be held accountable for what they have done.
The whole wave of prosperity teaching that came around mid eighties to nineties hasnt helped at all and christians have lost sight of what is important.We do not need riches, we should store them up in heaven, we shall not always be healed, but shall be made perfect in heaven, we, the people are the church, not these fancypants megachurch buildings.
Unfortunately, there will always be people like Joel Osteen around, and people there to back him up and believe him.

 

[Beaudreaux]

What he's doing wrong is saying and doing it all in Jesus name! Misrepresentation of the Bible and what God is about, taking advantage of people so desperate for help, that they would believe anything, especially if they are christian, they are mislead into believing this man(any many others alike) cares for them and is working for God to heal and help them, its disgusting!

Again, is the problem that there is a guy out there asking for money and quoting the Bible to justify it or is it the people who have a mindset that allows this? His pleas for money do not affect ME. Why is that, I wonder? They seem to only affect people who believe that a divine being is up there and He wrote his intentions into a book and he wants us all to follow that book.

And how do you know he's wrong about his interpretation of the Bible?

Yes, you can say that people are naieve,im sure wev'e all been guilty of that at some point in our life.

I never gave any money to anyone who said the Bible told me to.

Atleast God will be the judge of them when the time comes and they will be held accountable for what they have done.

WHAT HAVE THEY DONE??? They ASKED people to give money and quoted scripture to support their request. What? It's wrong to ask people for something?

The whole wave of prosperity teaching that came around mid eighties to nineties hasnt helped at all and christians have lost sight of what is important.We do not need riches, we should store them up in heaven, we shall not always be healed, but shall be made perfect in heaven, we, the people are the church, not these fancypants megachurch buildings.
Unfortunately, there will always be people like Joel Osteen around, and people there to back him up and believe him.

Joel Osteen and people like him are not the problem. The problem is a worldview where people abandon reason and follow a book.

 

[Storm]

FTR, my deeply Christian grandmother doesn't send money to televangelists, so it's not symptomatic of Christianity.

 

[Beaudreaux]

FTR, my deeply Christian grandmother doesn't send money to televangelists, so it's not symptomatic of Christianity.

Oh, my sister and her family don't either and they're Christian. But of the people who DO send money to Joel Osteen, how close to 100% do you think are Christians?

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

Joel Osteen, con artist
Mr Spinkles, stating the obvious

Sorry, couldn't resist. Not sure why so many sheeple flock to him and his ilk.

 

[Storm]

Oh, my sister and her family don't either and they're Christian. But of the people who DO send money to Joel Osteen, how close to 100% do you think are Christians?

My point is that you seemed to be saying there was something intrinsic to Christianity that makes people fall for crap like this. I don't think so.

 

[Storm]

Joel Osteen, con artist
Mr Spinkles, stating the obvious

Sorry, couldn't resist. Not sure why so many sheeple flock to him and his ilk.

OK, since nobody else wants to answer I'll ask you: what's the con? Where's the lie?

 

[Beaudreaux]

My point is that you seemed to be saying there was something intrinsic to Christianity that makes people fall for crap like this. I don't think so.

Point taken.

My point is that there are no atheists losing money to this guy. Only the faithful.

 

[Storm]

 

[Imagist]

I live 10 minutes away from "Touchdown Jesus". The funny thing is that less than a mile away on the other side of the highway from this monstrosity is a big Hustler sex shop.

Really? I thought the funny thing was that Jesus was using a miniature cross to cover his crotch.

 

[tumbleweed41]

FTR, my deeply Christian grandmother doesn't send money to televangelists, so it's not symptomatic of Christianity.

However, my deeply Christian mother sent a lot of money to Focus on The Family, in return my father had to deal with a lot of late notices from bill collectors.