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Its time for North Korean regime change.

Sanzbir

Well-Known Member
It's a man holding a gun to the head of a hostage. Shoot at the man, risk the hostage.

The hostage and the rest of us just don't want the hostage to get shot.

But for the man with the gun, there are three options.

The man can lower the gun and let the hostage go free, in which case he gets shot immediately because he has no leverage.

The man can shoot the hostage, but then he himself gets shot.

The only option he has to not get shot is to hold the gun to head of the hostage for as long as possible.

Thanks to the example Libya set, the man with the gun believes there is no option where he agrees to lower the gun and does not get shot.

So North Korea will not stop showing it has the capability to hit its hostages. It will also likely not actually attack its hostages until someone shoots at it. The only way they stay alive is to keep threatening, but never act on it.

When Libya gave up its WMD's to the US, the US repaid that act by air-striking Libya and helping a rebellion that culminated with Libya's leadership being sodomized to death with a knife.

North Korean leadership saw this and believes that disarming and working with the US is clearly a path to their own downfall, as happened with Libya. They will not stop threatening, and will not give up their WMD's. They believe they cannot do so.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
The best course would be to hurry up and get Trump out of the White House so that an intelligent, less impulsive and less childish President can deal with the situation.
In that case maybe it should have gone to Hillary she got rid of Gaddafi.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
It's a man holding a gun to the head of a hostage. Shoot at the man, risk the hostage.

The hostage and the rest of us just don't want the hostage to get shot.

But for the man with the gun, there are three options.

The man can lower the gun and let the hostage go free, in which case he gets shot immediately because he has no leverage.

The man can shoot the hostage, but then he himself gets shot.

The only option he has to not get shot is to hold the gun to head of the hostage for as long as possible.

Thanks to the example Libya set, the man with the gun believes there is no option where he agrees to lower the gun and does not get shot.

So North Korea will not stop showing it has the capability to hit its hostages. It will also likely not actually attack its hostages until someone shoots at it. The only way they stay alive is to keep threatening, but never act on it.

When Libya gave up its WMD's to the US, the US repaid that act by air-striking Libya and helping a rebellion that culminated with Libya's leadership being sodomized to death with a knife.

North Korean leadership saw this and believes that disarming and working with the US is clearly a path to their own downfall, as happened with Libya. They will not stop threatening, and will not give up their WMD's. They believe they cannot do so.
I think the long term we need to have China especially realize that the situation in the DPRK threatens what China values highly: stability. China is in a position to do much much more than we can because China is propping them up.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
The Kims are afraid of payback, regardless of Libya. This guy attempts to turn himself and his children into a state religion, because he knows (or thinks) nobody respects his family. You have to consider what their hidden objection is to bargaining, and I think that is it. The Kim government is probably afraid to bargain. They deserve to die, and I think they know it too well.

In the past taking off sanctions made the Kims more threatening, not less; so loosening sanctions seems unproductive. I am against cutting sanctions again. There is talk in US Congress of tightening sanctions, and China and Russia probably will be willing under certain conditions to cooperate in an oil embargo due to all of this stupid missile fire.
North Korea’s Nuclear Defiance of Trump’s “Fire and Fury”

I am not a foreign policy expert.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Yet another missile launched over Japan.

If our despot/tyrant friend Kimmy ding dong keeps this up, he's not going to be in charge of North Korea much longer.

North Korea’s Threat Pushes Japan to Reassess Its Might and Rights



What do you think the best course of action would be in dealing with North Korea?

Ignore the Nukes completely. Accept that they've got them and that is the "new normal". There is nothing you can realistically do about the human rights abuses either without blowing the whole place up like Iraq. The population are not likely to welcome an American occupation after fifty years of brainwashing. You have no control over a regime that willing to starve its own people to protect its independence. So go to the root of the problem.

Invite Kim Jong Un to the US. Let them have their propaganda "victory" and they can claim they subdued the American Imperialists. They can feed that back to their own people in the news reels. Give North Korea Diplomatic Recognition from the United States (its never had it) and set up an embassy. We're only talking pride here. pride is cheap.

Send the President of the United States to Pyongyang for a series of talks to prepare the ground for a formal peace treaty that ends the Korean War with North Korea renouncing all claim to South Korean territory. Throw in a generous aid package to develop North Korea's Oil reserves so they can become energy independent to make sure they reach an agreement. Lean on China and get them to offer some additional economic assistance as their "ally", particularly with food and agriculture. Open up the border with South Korea and let them get their hands on new consumer technology.

Pretty much every outcome of that in the short-run is good from the US point of view. You break the ice, start diplomatic relations and get peace talks moving. They still have nukes for deterrent purposes but you've just taken away any reason for them to use them offensively within international law. The long term problem is whether this backfires and makes them stronger, but that's North Korea's decision.

North Korea is not looking for a global empire like the Nazis, they want unification of "their" own people. The risk of appeasement is comparatively smaller because they only want South Korea. If you say to them "this has been going on for 50 years- do you really want to risk a war for this?" you at least are going to get a pretty straight answer and clear the air. The West doesn't want a war, neither does China and so give North Korea the option just to walk away. If it accepts a peace treaty, it just gave up its primary objective. it can let history be history.

You can't stop them if they really want a war but you given them a really good reason to take the Chinese model of liberalising their economy. At a minimum you will have helped the north korean people slightly by creating conditions to improve their living standards. Whether their is ever a "free" Korea in the North is out of your hands. If they still decide to go to war in a decade or so time, they will be strongly militarily, but diplomatically it will be so obviously an act of aggression there is a pretty good chance that not even Russia or China will want to help them. It at least buys time and kicks the issue down the road. You at least giving a long-term solution a chance.

After all, Republicans are good at this sort of thing. :D

000cf1bdd03f0aca906038.jpg
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Ignore the Nukes completely. Accept that they've got them and that is the "new normal". There is nothing you can realistically do about the human rights abuses either without blowing the whole place up like Iraq. The population are not likely to welcome an American occupation after fifty years of brainwashing. You have no control over a regime that willing to starve its own people to protect its independence. So go to the root of the problem.

Invite Kim Jong Un to the US. Let them have their propaganda "victory" and they can claim they subdued the American Imperialists. They can feed that back to their own people in the news reels. Give North Korea Diplomatic Recognition from the United States (its never had it) and set up an embassy. We're only talking pride here. pride is cheap.

Send the President of the United States to Pyongyang for a series of talks to prepare the ground for a formal peace treaty that ends the Korean War with North Korea renouncing all claim to South Korean territory. Throw in a generous aid package to develop North Korea's Oil reserves so they can become energy independent to make sure they reach an agreement. Lean on China and get them to offer some additional economic assistance as their "ally", particularly with food and agriculture. Open up the border with South Korea and let them get their hands on new consumer technology.

Pretty much every outcome of that in the short-run is good from the US point of view. You break the ice, start diplomatic relations and get peace talks moving. They still have nukes for deterrent purposes but you've just taken away any reason for them to use them offensively within international law. The long term problem is whether this backfires and makes them stronger, but that's North Korea's decision.
EXCELLENT!
 

Vee

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Yet another missile launched over Japan.

If our despot/tyrant friend Kimmy ding dong keeps this up, he's not going to be in charge of North Korea much longer.

North Korea’s Threat Pushes Japan to Reassess Its Might and Rights



What do you think the best course of action would be in dealing with North Korea?

Drop loads of phones all over the country will good internet connections and lots of information in Korean. The only reason that regime is still standing is because the people live in deep ignorance and fear. The only information they get is the one the government wants them to have. They live in extreme poverty, with no access to different TV channels or freedom to use the internet. Educate the people and they'll change the regime themselves.
I'm not sure of prices but the phones are probably cheaper than bombs.
 

Kemosloby

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
It's simple, redraw all the maps and make North Korea part of China. As far as the rest of the world is concerned North Korea becomes part of China. The Chinese see it as a gift, then have more room to make cheap stuff to ship to the USA. Kim Jong simply gets pushed out of the way.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Probably not by mocking Kim Jong-un's Korean name.
Maybe, picked it up from a YouTuber trying North Korean MREs. Seems fitting considering the way he carries on with provocative reckless actions like shooting missiles over Japanese airspace.

I think the next time it happens, and it seems very possible it could be a next time, Japan and the US should start actually shooting them down out of the sky instead of "retaliatory" action with a counter missile test to show Kim that we can do just that.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
What do you think the best course of action would be in dealing with North Korea?
It's "been time" for a rather long time. Too long have the North Korean people been ravaged by their political masters. The problem is that those master have all the guns and the masses are already cowed into submission. There is virtually no possibility of an uprising taking place that would not be brutally crushed in an instant.

What can we do about it? I don't know. The problem has been festering for decades and has thwarted the thinking of far greater thinkers than me for a very long time. I would just keep an eye on them and perhaps not threaten them. I might exert diplomatic pressure on China to try to find some solutions. The problem is how to get them to back down and still save face.
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
Ignore the Nukes completely. Accept that they've got them and that is the "new normal". There is nothing you can realistically do about the human rights abuses either without blowing the whole place up like Iraq. The population are not likely to welcome an American occupation after fifty years of brainwashing. You have no control over a regime that willing to starve its own people to protect its independence. So go to the root of the problem.

Invite Kim Jong Un to the US. Let them have their propaganda "victory" and they can claim they subdued the American Imperialists. They can feed that back to their own people in the news reels. Give North Korea Diplomatic Recognition from the United States (its never had it) and set up an embassy. We're only talking pride here. pride is cheap.

Send the President of the United States to Pyongyang for a series of talks to prepare the ground for a formal peace treaty that ends the Korean War with North Korea renouncing all claim to South Korean territory. Throw in a generous aid package to develop North Korea's Oil reserves so they can become energy independent to make sure they reach an agreement. Lean on China and get them to offer some additional economic assistance as their "ally", particularly with food and agriculture. Open up the border with South Korea and let them get their hands on new consumer technology.

Pretty much every outcome of that in the short-run is good from the US point of view. You break the ice, start diplomatic relations and get peace talks moving. They still have nukes for deterrent purposes but you've just taken away any reason for them to use them offensively within international law. The long term problem is whether this backfires and makes them stronger, but that's North Korea's decision.

North Korea is not looking for a global empire like the Nazis, they want unification of "their" own people. The risk of appeasement is comparatively smaller because they only want South Korea. If you say to them "this has been going on for 50 years- do you really want to risk a war for this?" you at least are going to get a pretty straight answer and clear the air. The West doesn't want a war, neither does China and so give North Korea the option just to walk away. If it accepts a peace treaty, it just gave up its primary objective. it can let history be history.

You can't stop them if they really want a war but you given them a really good reason to take the Chinese model of liberalising their economy. At a minimum you will have helped the north korean people slightly by creating conditions to improve their living standards. Whether their is ever a "free" Korea in the North is out of your hands. If they still decide to go to war in a decade or so time, they will be strongly militarily, but diplomatically it will be so obviously an act of aggression there is a pretty good chance that not even Russia or China will want to help them. It at least buys time and kicks the issue down the road. You at least giving a long-term solution a chance.

After all, Republicans are good at this sort of thing. :D

000cf1bdd03f0aca906038.jpg

The North Korean's are taught to hate Americans. It's not recognition from us that they want, it's for us to get out of South Korea so they can conquer the entire country.

A peace treaty is only a piece of paper, you think it means something when it means nothing.

Throw in a generous aid package? Why, so they can spend it on weapons development like they've been doing? South Korea already gives the north something like $8 million a year and they're spending it on making missiles instead of farm tractors.

International law is not law, there is no enforcement unless the United States enforces it.

North Korea is only looking for unification of their people? Yeah, under the great Kim Dong Il.

North Korea could open their society now if they wanted to. They don't because they want total control. You're thinking that Kim Dong Il is really just a good guy at heart and everything is the US fault, that's dilusional.

If North Korea breaks a peace treaty there's a good chance that Russia or China will not help them? Okay, so they end up losing the war after months of fighting but Seoul is destroyed, that's 10 million people. You're just looking to put the blame on whoever breaks the peace treaty as if that means something. Kim Dong Dil will be dead, do you think he cares whether he caused the deaths of millions of Koreans? Do you think Hitler cares now about what he did?

Here's a true story: there was this Korean family that lived in Japan, a grandma, her daughter and husband and two kids. The grandma had lived in Northern Korea but she and her husband moved to Japan when the war started. The grandma always supported North Korea and did not like Japan or the US so the grandma wanted to go back to North Korea and did not believe any of the things the media said. The grandma was able to convince the rest of the family to move to North Korea so they did. They moved into a very nice townhouse in Pyongyang. A month later the family transferred all of their money into a North Korean bank. The next day the police showed up at the house and arrested the family and sent them to a labor camp and the government stole the money in their account. One of the kids eventually escaped the labor camp and made it to South Korea.

A peace treaty means nothing. US taxpayer bought M1 tanks, stealth bombers, and cruise missiles keep the peace.
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
Ignore the Nukes completely. Accept that they've got them and that is the "new normal". There is nothing you can realistically do about the human rights abuses either without blowing the whole place up like Iraq. The population are not likely to welcome an American occupation after fifty years of brainwashing. You have no control over a regime that willing to starve its own people to protect its independence. So go to the root of the problem.

Invite Kim Jong Un to the US. Let them have their propaganda "victory" and they can claim they subdued the American Imperialists. They can feed that back to their own people in the news reels. Give North Korea Diplomatic Recognition from the United States (its never had it) and set up an embassy. We're only talking pride here. pride is cheap.

Send the President of the United States to Pyongyang for a series of talks to prepare the ground for a formal peace treaty that ends the Korean War with North Korea renouncing all claim to South Korean territory. Throw in a generous aid package to develop North Korea's Oil reserves so they can become energy independent to make sure they reach an agreement. Lean on China and get them to offer some additional economic assistance as their "ally", particularly with food and agriculture. Open up the border with South Korea and let them get their hands on new consumer technology.

Pretty much every outcome of that in the short-run is good from the US point of view. You break the ice, start diplomatic relations and get peace talks moving. They still have nukes for deterrent purposes but you've just taken away any reason for them to use them offensively within international law. The long term problem is whether this backfires and makes them stronger, but that's North Korea's decision.

North Korea is not looking for a global empire like the Nazis, they want unification of "their" own people. The risk of appeasement is comparatively smaller because they only want South Korea. If you say to them "this has been going on for 50 years- do you really want to risk a war for this?" you at least are going to get a pretty straight answer and clear the air. The West doesn't want a war, neither does China and so give North Korea the option just to walk away. If it accepts a peace treaty, it just gave up its primary objective. it can let history be history.

You can't stop them if they really want a war but you given them a really good reason to take the Chinese model of liberalising their economy. At a minimum you will have helped the north korean people slightly by creating conditions to improve their living standards. Whether their is ever a "free" Korea in the North is out of your hands. If they still decide to go to war in a decade or so time, they will be strongly militarily, but diplomatically it will be so obviously an act of aggression there is a pretty good chance that not even Russia or China will want to help them. It at least buys time and kicks the issue down the road. You at least giving a long-term solution a chance.

After all, Republicans are good at this sort of thing. :D

000cf1bdd03f0aca906038.jpg


Maybe we could just give Kim a free massage and facial at the nearest Unicorn Spa while we're at it.
 
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