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Featured Is there evil in Heaven? If so can Heaven really be perfect?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Hella Jingles, Jul 24, 2017.

  1. Super Universe

    Super Universe Defender of God

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    There is no electricity in the Tanakh either but somehow it's true regardless.

    Later people made those stories up? So that somehow makes the earlier stories more true? Were you taught in history class that earlier people new more than later people?

    Where is your golden calf?
     
  2. eldios

    eldios Active Member

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    All human beings are created as information called Satan. Our consciousness is created from the information called Christ. The information called the Beast teaches human beings how to build things with their human hands. Christ is eternal and will give us new images to observe with a new language in the next generation.
     
  3. Mister Silver

    Mister Silver Faith's Nightmare

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    There is no heaven. The only evil is of man-made construction.
     
  4. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    But Adam and Eve didn't say that, PLUS it was true. They didn't "on that very day" die. God was dishonest.

    If a human can be born of dirt and a 12 year old girl can birth someone without sex, then this doesn't make any sense. :)

    I'm reminded of parents looking at a temper tantrum-throwing child and one says to the other, "that's YOUR kid."

    There's no lightning in the bible? ;D
     
  5. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    We aren't discussing electricity.

    You are going on about Lucifer, - and there is no Lucifer in Tanakh.

    Also,It specifically says the verse in question is about the King of Babylon, and calls him THE MAN. No superhuman evil being.

    Urantia was invented somewhere between 1920's and 1955 Wasn't it?

    With seceding PLANETARY PRINCES, etc?

    *
     
    #105 Ingledsva, Aug 17, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2017
  6. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    That is an odd-ball idea, as are the rest of these.

    Why would humans be created from Satan information?

    In Tanakh Satan is just a servant of YHVH. The evil idea is brought in later.

    Where are you getting this idea from?

    Where are these ideas coming from? You have Lutheran listed, - and those are not Lutheran teachings.

    *
     
  7. 12jtartar

    12jtartar Active Member
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    Hella Jingles,
    I see that you read your Bible, and I hope that you believe what it says, in all places.
    You are right that Satan was a very beautiful angel, and that he rebelled against God, but there is much more the Bible says about Satan. The term Lucifer is used in a few Bibles, but that is a descriptive word that does not fit Satan the Devil. It means the bearer of light. I hope you see that would fit Jesus, but certainly not Satan.
    Let me, Please show you more about Satan.we can determine by the conditions on earth that the war in heaven, mentioned at Revelation 12:7-10,12. Notice that Satan was cast down to earth, and then the conditions on earth would deteriorate and continue to get worse. When Satan was cast down to earth, that was the beginning of what the Bible calls the Last Days, 2Timothy 3:1-5.
    Historians tell us that there has never been a time in the history of mankind when things changed suddenly for the worse, that in 1914. It is no coincidence that WW 1 started in 1914, and since then there has only been a few weeks when there was no wars, since then.
    This date, 1914 is a very significant date, for it also was prophesied by Daniel as the date that God's Kingdom would begin again. This was prophesied at Daniel 4:10-24. In this prophecy God's Kingdom was likened to a great tree, that was cut down for a period of seven times. These seven times were a long range prophecy that was actually 2,520 years, from the time that Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Jerusalem and the great Temple that Solomon built, in 607 BC down to the year 1914. This was the time period that the Gentiles would have the upper hand, Luke 21:24. This is the same time period that is mentioned at Revelation 6:2, when Jesus received his crown, of the Messianic Kingdom. Then read the next verses, which speak of a fiery colored Horse, with a rider carrying a great sword, which means war, then a black Horse symbolizing famine, then another Horse symbolizing death in all kinds of ways with the grave following. Do you see how the conditions on earth are exactly as prophesied by Bible writers.
    We are now living in the very Last of the Last Days, the time just before The Great Tribulation will break out. With the last part being Armageddon, Revelation 16:16, when Jesus comes with his angels to judge the earth, Acts 17:31, Matthew 25:31-46, Revelation 19:11-21. Then Jesus will resurrect billions who have died in the past, and the ones who live through the Great Tribulation, Revelation 7:14, will with Jesus' help, bring the earth to the Paradise condition that God originally purpose.
    We are very near that glorious time!!! Agape!!!
     
  8. Super Universe

    Super Universe Defender of God

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    I meant electricity as something only in the last 100 years produced by humans to power homes and equipment.

    The three thousand year old Tanakh and bible do not tell us everything about God and the universe.
     
  9. eldios

    eldios Active Member

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    All the knowledge of God that I possess was acquired during the second witness of the 1,000 year reign of Christ which no Christian understands.
     
  10. Super Universe

    Super Universe Defender of God

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    We aren't talking about electricity? But how can it be possible if it's not in the Tanakh? I mean, if it's possible, and it is surely is, then how come it's not in the Tanakh? And airplane travel is not in the Tanakh either. Advanced economic theory is not in there either. Plate Tectonics. Physics. Astronomy. Cellular biology. Mass production. The internal combustion engine. Chemistry. Computers and the internet. How could these things be possible if they're not in the Tanakh? Maybe because the Tanakh was written by ignorant men who were afraid of comets and had only a primitive understanding of the earth and universe, that's why.

    I'm going on about Lucifer? I was.

    There is no Lucifer in the Tanakh? I didn't say there was.

    It specifically (the verse) is about the King of Babylon? The verse is, the line about Lucifer being the Bright Morning Star is not. The Jews were conquered by Nebuchadnezzar and many Jews were taken back to Babylon as slaves. The Jews in Babylon wrote down their stories just as the Jews still near Jerusalem continued to write down stories. When the Jews in Babylon were released they returned to Jerusalem with their books and the Rabbi's had to combine the stories. This same thing also happened in Egypt when the Jews went there because of a famine and were held as slaves, then escaped. The coalescing of stories is why Genesis starts by telling the story of Adam and Eve and then has to restart again.

    Urantia was invented somewhere between the 20's and 55'? Urantia is the angel's name for the earth so it's a lot older than the 20's. The Urantia Book was written sometime around 1924 to 1955. Are you actually still trying to say that something older has more truth than something newer? When in all of history have we seen that?

    The UB talks about seceding Planetary Princes? Lucifer was not the Planetary Prince. He was the Bright Morning Star in charge of this universe.

    Please provide your evidence that ancient people were smarter than modern people.
     
  11. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    We've been told we are living in the last days - since Jesus died.

    *
     
  12. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    Stop the red-herring crap.

    There is no Lucifer in Tanakh, - and you were going on about Lucifer - in post # 98.

    Super Universe - "Lucifer was not a pillar of heaven's community. Lucifer has never been to heaven. He, like all angels, only knows what he has been told about God and heaven and Lucifer was not the most beautiful angel. He was a "Bright Morning Star", which means he was an administrative leader in charge of this universe.

    Lucifer did not raise an army. The "war" in heaven was a war of words. Lucifer rebelled against Jesus because Jesus was about to begin His earthly bestowal mission and once that was completed Lucifer would have to step down as CEO of the universe because Jesus would be taking over. Many angels sided with Lucifer because the angels knew Lucifer and had worked with him as their leader. The angels did not know Jesus who was disposed doing the work that only He could do."

    Baloney! The whole text is about Babylon. The morning star term is being used just as we use such today, when we talk about a fallen TV personality, - for instance. He made a rise to the top becoming a "bright rising star," then he did something stupid - and took a great fall from grace.

    Isa 14:4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor failed! the golden city failed!

    Isa 14:11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

    Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven (a height), O Bright rising star, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

    Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

    NO! That is just part of the storyline.

    We are not talking about history. We are talking about a book supposedly of mystical origins -"As early as 1911, William S. Sadler and his wife Lena Sadler, physicians in Chicago and well known in the community, are said to have been approached by a neighbor who was concerned because she would occasionally find her husband in a deep sleep and breathing abnormally.[10][11] She reported that she was unable to wake him at these times. The Sadlers came to observe the episodes, and over time, the individual produced verbal communications that claimed to be from "student visitor" spiritual beings.[12][11] This changed sometime in early 1925[12] with a "voluminous handwritten document," which from then on became the regular method of purported communication.[12][13] The Urantia Book - Wikipedia


    Indeed it does. That is the exact word used. Haven't you read your book?

    The Urantia Book; Paper 53, Section 7

    Page 607 The Lucifer rebellion was system wide. Thirty-seven seceding Planetary Princes swung their world administrations largely to the side of the archrebel. Only on Panoptia did the Planetary Prince fail to carry his people with him. On this world, under the guidance of the Melchizedeks, the people rallied to the support of Michael. Ellanora, a young woman of that mortal realm, grasped the leadership of the human races, and not a single soul on that strife-torn world enlisted under the Lucifer banner. And ever since have these loyal Panoptians served on the seventh Jerusem transition world as the caretakers and builders on the Father's sphere and its surrounding seven detention worlds. The Panoptians not only act as the literal custodians of these worlds, but they also execute the personal orders of Michael for the embellishment of these spheres for some future and unknown use. They do this work as they tarry en route to Edentia.

    P.601 - 1 Lucifer was a brilliant primary Lanonandek Son of Nebadon. He had experienced service in many systems, had been a high counselor of his group, and was distinguished for wisdom, sagacity, and efficiency. Lucifer was number 37 of his order, and when commissioned by the Melchizedeks, he was designated as one of the one hundred most able and brilliant personalities in more than seven hundred thousand of his kind. From such a magnificent beginning, through evil and error, he embraced sin and now is numbered as one of three System Sovereigns in Nebadon who have succumbed to the urge of self and surrendered to the sophistry of spurious personal liberty--rejection of universe allegiance and disregard of fraternal obligations, blindness to cosmic relationships.

    P.601 - 2 In the universe of Nebadon, the domain of Christ Michael, there are ten thousand systems of inhabited worlds. In all the history of Lanonandek Sons, in all their work throughout these thousands of systems and at the universe headquarters, only three System Sovereigns have ever been found in contempt of the government of the Creator Son.


    What a ridiculous red-herring.

    According to the Wiki article - "The Sadlers were both respected physicians, and William Sadler was a debunker of paranormal claims, who is portrayed as not believing in the supernatural.[14]"

    How fun for them to have spoofed several generations with this book.

    And notice it uses their known religious background, - Judaic/Christian. I guess the other religions don't exist in their universe. :rolleyes:

    They have picked words and names from the Bible and run with them.

    *
     
  13. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    Which doesn't answer my question.

    Why would humans be created from Satan information?

    In Tanakh Satan is just a servant of YHVH. The evil idea is brought in later.

    *
     
  14. Super Universe

    Super Universe Defender of God

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    Stop the red-herring crap? No one is red-herring you. I bet no one has ever red-herring'd you and no one ever will red-herring you. I bet you misplaced your golden calf, didn't you?

    Let's look at a few things the tribal book Old Testament taught:

    -An eye for an eye. A primtive idea that was stolen from Hammurabi's laws when the Jews were captive in Babylon. No one follows that ridiculous rule anymore except mentally handicapped people and Saudi Arabia. Hope they are good company for you.

    -God is angry and jealous. Great, another tribal idea that went out of fashion thousands of years ago.

    -Stone to death those who violate the sabbath. Except even the Jews don't follow that anymore so how can it be from God if it gets replaced after only 500 years?

    -Stone to death those who commit adultery. I think ISIS is the only group doing this now so thanks for another primitive idea that was supposed to have come from God but really came from primitives who worshipped golden calves and called themselves the chosen people.

    There is no Lucifer in the Tanakh? I never said there was. Why are you under the impression that all revelation has to come from the Tanakh? Modern Jews don't even follow the ten commandments anymore. When was the last time the Jews stoned to death someone for violating the sabbath? So your religious book that supposedly has the literal word of God is considered by your own people to be outdated.

    The Bright Morning Star is about Babylon? It's really not.

    Urantia was invented in the 20's to 55'? That means it's 2,000 years newer than the Tanakh and the people who wrote it were not afraid of comets and earthquakes and ignorant about diseases and floods and didn't try to blame everything on God. What a revelation! God, the Creator of the universe is not really jealous and angry and didn't really murder most of humanity even though the primitive and ignorant Jews tried to say He did!

    We're not talking history? No, you're trying to promote herstory, your Jewish version of the universe.

    Does the UB talk about seceding Planetary Princes? It does. Once again, Lucifer was not a Planetary Prince. My posts were about Lucifer, not Planetary Princes. If you want to discuss the UB then I would suggest you start another thread because that is not the topic here.

    We're not talking about history in reference to the UB, a book of supposedly mystical origins? Oh, and the book that supposedly has God telling Abraham to kill his own son is better? And it tells of Job being tortured over and over again by a primitive God. And it tells people to stone others to death for working on the sabbath. And it tells others that God gets really, really, really angry some times and murders people. And it tells us that the Jews are the chosen people. Riiiiiight...

    As for the Sadler's, they were pawns. The information can be judged on it's own, not on their credibility. If we use Moses credibility to judge the OT, well, then it makes sense that an ignorant and primitive man who lived 2,000 years ago came up with ten stupid rules that no one, not even the Jews, follows anymore.

    You guess the other religions don't exist in their (the Sadlers UB) universe? The UB has sections on every major religion.

    Are the Jews going to start stoning people to death again some time soon? Because if they don't that means that you doubt Moses credibility that the ten commandments were really from God.
     
  15. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    I don't belong to any of the religions of Abraham.

    Your rant above says nothing, and obviously does not actually address what I said.

    Your religion was given by a man that debunked spiritualists and the like.

    It is supposedly a psychic message from planetary beings that somehow use Judaic/Christian words and names - Satan, Lucifer, Michael, Melchizedeks, Jerusem, etc.

    The Sadlers and their group more then likely made up the Urantia story to show how easy it was to fool people into believing anything.

    *
     
  16. Super Universe

    Super Universe Defender of God

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    You don't belong to any of the religions of Abraham? Maybe right now you don't, at least, not until you find where you left your golden calf statue.

    My rant says nothing? Your rant says nothing.

    My religion was given by a man that debunked spiritualists? Better that than an ignorant primitive who preached that people should stone to death their own people because they searched for a lost goat on the sabbath.

    It (the UB) is supposedly a psychic message from beings that somehow use Judeo/Christian words? Better that than a book that teaches that God gets angry and sends floods and storms and fireballs from heaven because the ignorant and primitive people don't know what meteors are.

    The Sadlers and their group more than likely made up the UB? Good, it's still light years better than what Moses and the Jews came up with.

    When's the next stoning going to be?
     
  17. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    By the time of Revelation chapter 12 there is No evil in heaven.
    Not the same tartarus of myth, but biblical tartarus (Greek tartao'o) shows that once the demons of Genesis chapter 6 fell, they were Not returned to heaven but to that spiritually dark condition as per Jude 1:6.

    As a new broom sweeps clean ( meaning a fresh start ) Jesus, as that new broom so to speak, cleansed out the heavens a per Revelation 12:12.
    Now, Jesus' attention is focused on the Earth according to Revelation 19:11; Revelation 19:14-16.
    Jesus, as king of God's kingdom government (Daniel 2:44) is going to bring those same clean healthy heavenly conditions to exist here on Earth, when mankind will see the return of the Genesis 'tree of life ' for the curing of the healing of earth's nations as per Revelation 22:2. That is why we are all invited to pray the prayer for Jesus to "come" as per Revelation 22:20. We don't pray to be taken away, or pray to be taken up, but for God's kingdom to "come". Come and undo all the damage Satan and Adam brought upon us.
     
  18. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Eve repeated what God said at Genesis 3:2-3.
    Just as the creative days are Not 24-hour days, the ' day ' that they would eat was a thousand-year day.
    Remember: ALL of the creative days (plural) are summed up by the (singular) word "day" at Genesis 2:4.
    A thousand years is as a day in God's viewpoint because He is Not limited by time as we are as per 2 Peter 3:8.
    That is why Adam died before age 1,000 and so did Methuselah according to Genesis 5:5; Genesis 5:27.
    Jesus' coming millennium-long day of governing over Earth is also a thousand-year day.
     
  19. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find at both Matthew 24 and Luke 21 there is both a minor and a MAJOR fullfillment about 'last days '.
    In the year 70 the 'minor' fulfillment came when the Roman armies destroyed un-faithful Jerusalem.
    The MAJOR fulfillment is set for our day meaning the now time frame of Revelation 1:10.
    Wrong guesses simply do Not make the Bible as wrong, but just makes the wrong guesses as wrong.
    Spiritual light grows brighter and lighter with the passing of time as per Proverbs 4:18; Daniel 12:4; Daniel 12:9.
    Full spiritual daylight, so to speak, is now because now we are finally seeing the fulfillment of Matthew 24:14 about the good news message about God's kingdom (Daniel 2:44) is Now proclaimed on a vast international scale as never before in history.
    Modern technology has made possible rapid Bible translation so that now people even in remote areas of Earth can have Scripture in their own mother tongue or native languages. So, we are truly in the last days of badness on Earth before Jesus, as Prince of Peace, will usher in global Peace on Earth among people of goodwill.
     
  20. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find Revelation 12:12 connects to the reason why we have the ' woe ' that we see on Earth today.
    Agree, an end-time prophecy, as connected to 2 Timothy 3:1-5,13 describing these last days of badness on Earth.
    All of Revelation is Not written in chronological order. After the time of Revelation 19:11; 14-16 is when Jesus' coming millennium-long day of governing over Earth begins when the dead will be resurrected.
    That is why Acts of the Apostles 24:15 uses the ' future tense ' that there ' is going to be ' a resurrection.....
     
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