1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Is there evil in Heaven? If so can Heaven really be perfect?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Hella Jingles, Jul 24, 2017.

  1. eldios

    eldios Active Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2017
    Messages:
    283
    Ratings:
    +30
    Religion:
    Lutheran
    All visible human beings were formed in the minds of men from the processing of information called Satan.

    The Beast is the information that forms in the minds of men such as visible images, words, etc. to build false gods with their human hands.

    Christ is the eternal information that will replace Satan and the Beast after the day of the Lord.
     
  2. eldios

    eldios Active Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2017
    Messages:
    283
    Ratings:
    +30
    Religion:
    Lutheran
    Christians were never meant to be used to interpret the prophecies. That's why they're all very confused and anxious.
     
  3. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

    Joined:
    May 1, 2017
    Messages:
    2,525
    Ratings:
    +1,011
    Religion:
    No Religion. I Sense The Higher Power.
    Lucifer was second only to God. He was created supremely, perfect in wisdom, and knowledge. God never fathomed evil and it none ever existed before. Than Lucifer wanted to be God, and sought to destroy God, and rule over all of heaven. God casted him out of heaven; known as the expulsion. Lucifer was made to reflect God's glory.

    psalms says that all mankind is born from sin.
    in Christianity believers are to be redeemed from sin and given a new nature by faith in Jesus. So free will is given every man to choose between good and evil.

    all mankind deserves hell, but God rather chose to forgive mankind, and thus took our place at the cross, defeating death and damnation for mankind. He bore our punishmemt.
    The victory of Jesus is solely the salvation of mankind through the acceptance of God's own Holy Spirit.

    it is said that by the power of God's faith, that mankind is changed not of themselves , but by of a choice to accept God's faith. faith in Jesus.

    it's a very interesting story the way it is meant. God calls the human body vile and filthy.

    so instead of creating from the outside in, as with Lucifer. God creates a new creature from the inside out. born sinners born into the curse of Adam, born into death, can receive transformation into a new nature of life, by the victory of Jesus at Calvary.

    because with God, it is the heart that matters, and all else is details.

    it's an awesome story. as a teenager I used to believe it. but the old testament stories were too fantastical for me to accept it literally. but as a symbolic story that teaches a lesson, it was quite interesting.
    the question arises, why didn't God know about evil before it happened? ; God had to adjust to evil in heaven, and then make a plan to defeat it.
     
    #123 osgart, Aug 18, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2017
  4. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,391
    Ratings:
    +2,485
    Well --- That's your idea anyway.

    *
     
  5. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,391
    Ratings:
    +2,485
    Dude - it's ridiculous how you keep bringing up junk from the religions of Abraham, - of which I am not a member, - and yet your religion uses all of the Abrahamic imagery. It just put the same things and names into new planetary beings ideas.

    Not "supposedly" - they said so. Messages received through a supposedly unconscious person.

    *
     
  6. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,391
    Ratings:
    +2,485
    That is not the way I read it.

    *
     
  7. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,391
    Ratings:
    +2,485
    Again - where are you getting those ideas?

    Why would humans be made - in the minds of MEN - from information called Satan? When Satan is just anther name of one of YHVH's angels?

    Why do you think images, words, false god building, is the "beast?

    You are Lutheran - so - why do you consider "Christ" just eternal information, that will replace Satan beast information?

    *
     
  8. Super Universe

    Super Universe Defender of God

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2005
    Messages:
    4,762
    Ratings:
    +396
    Religion:
    Urantia Book
    It's ridiculous how you keep bringing up junk from the religions of Abraham - it matters not that you are a member.

    My religion uses the "Abrahamic imagery" because there are some truths mixed in with the falsehoods.

    The UB was received through a supposedly unconcious person? And how do you think the ancient writers of the books of the Old Testament and Revelations got their ideas? The same way lady.
     
    #128 Super Universe, Aug 19, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 21, 2017
  9. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    11,975
    Ratings:
    +1,636
    Seems to me, Joel does Not agree with the ^ above ^ because Joel 2:28-29 says they will prophecy which is in harmony with Acts of the Apostles 2:17-18.
     
  10. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    11,975
    Ratings:
    +1,636
    I find that in Scripture that Satan is Not his name, but that he is called a Satan and a Devil. (Not his proper name).
    Satan's name is unknown, whereas YHVH (Tetragrammaton) of God's name is known. Old KJV Psalms 83:18.
     
  11. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,391
    Ratings:
    +2,485

    Your religion uses Abrahamic religions because that is what it's creators where familiar with.

    Again the writers SAID it was through this method. You should know these things about your own religion.

    The Abrahamic "claim" God spoke directly with them, gave them tablets of law, etc.

    But again, I don't believe in - or belong to those religions, - so it is ridiculous to keep throwing out the likes of, = "And how do you think the ancient writers of the books of the Old Testament and Revelations got their ideas?"

    Who cares how they claim to have gotten them. Your writer told us how he got them.

    *
     
    #131 Ingledsva, Aug 19, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 21, 2017
  12. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,391
    Ratings:
    +2,485
    Which doesn't answer my question - which was -

    "Why would humans be created from Satan information?

    In Tanakh Satan is just a servant of YHVH. The evil idea is brought in later."


    Devil is a NT term, not found in Tanakh.

    I am well aware that it uses the term "the Satan." As in the tester/accuser.

    We have verses where he appears among the other angels, and verses where he plays god's prosecuting attorney.

    Zechariah 3:1 Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of YHVH, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him.

    How eldios comes up with the idea that HUMANS are CREATED from SATAN INFORMATION, - is beyond me.

    Also - a tetragrammaton is useful as a place holder for God's name, but it is not God's name.

    *
     
  13. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,391
    Ratings:
    +2,485
    That idea means your God is not All Powerful, Supreme, All knowing, etc.

    It would also mean polytheism, - as your Satan has God powers to create something the other God didn't.

    Tanakh does not say Satan wanted power, and was tossed from Heaven. That is from a misunderstanding of Tanakh texts about A King of Babylon.

    *
     
  14. Super Universe

    Super Universe Defender of God

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2005
    Messages:
    4,762
    Ratings:
    +396
    Religion:
    Urantia Book
    My religion uses Abrahamic religions because that is what it's creators were familiar with? And how did they know about all of the angel ranks and jobs and multiple training schools and entire history of Jesus on the earth and details of the Lucifer Rebellion and Adam and Eve and more?

    The writers of the UB said it was through the channeling method? And? So. Would express mail be a more credible method?

    I should know this about my own religion? Do you know who wrote any book of the Tanakh?

    Who cares how the writers of the OT and NT got them? One of the guys said the info came from a burning bush that did not burn up. Wow, that's like really super credible. What do we do with people who say they hear burning bushes talk to them?

    When is the next stoning going to be?
     
    #134 Super Universe, Aug 19, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 21, 2017
  15. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,391
    Ratings:
    +2,485
    Books outside the Bible, Christian spiritualism, etc. And I would assume - a whole lot of made up material.

    Channeling is NOT a credible source. Anyone can claim to be in a trance receiving special information.

    Indeed you should know such information about your own religion if you are going to be on here promoting it.

    Again NOT Abrahamic! I don't believe either of you, - so - why do you keep throwing them in?

    Again - not being Abrahamic, - what is this supposed to mean to me?

    *
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

    Joined:
    May 1, 2017
    Messages:
    2,525
    Ratings:
    +1,011
    Religion:
    No Religion. I Sense The Higher Power.
    not my religion. the story comes from the kjv1611. Tanakh , im not familiar with.

    it's all fables to me anyway.
     
  17. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,391
    Ratings:
    +2,485
    LOL! Then why did you post this -

    "Lucifer was second only to God. He was created supremely, perfect in wisdom, and knowledge. God never fathomed evil and it none ever existed before. Than Lucifer wanted to be God, and sought to destroy God, and rule over all of heaven. God casted him out of heaven; known as the expulsion. Lucifer was made to reflect God's glory. ...."

    And why do you use their names and ideas to jump from?

    *
     
  18. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

    Joined:
    May 1, 2017
    Messages:
    2,525
    Ratings:
    +1,011
    Religion:
    No Religion. I Sense The Higher Power.
    I grew up in a Christian house, and I felt that people should know the real story that fundamentalist Christians adhere to.

    I thought that the conceptions of good and evil were interesting, and the story itself raises interesting issues about good and evil as chosen natures of being.

    I also thought that it was interesting how stories like this become believable to people whom close themselves off from the actual nature of reality.

    lastly, I think examining God, and his perfection, and power is worth scrutinizing because it holds up a false ideal of truth authority. I like to imagine what would a just God be, and how far away from just the Bible is.

    Christianity is a widely held belief, and people should know the salvation story because it represents a view of justice in the world.
     
  19. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,391
    Ratings:
    +2,485
    Except that the story you are telling is not actually in Tanakh. It is a later invention.

    There is no Lucifer, or rebellion, or fall of Satan, in Tanakh.

    *
     
  20. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

    Joined:
    May 1, 2017
    Messages:
    2,525
    Ratings:
    +1,011
    Religion:
    No Religion. I Sense The Higher Power.
    Isaiah 14:12, in kjv 1611, Lucifer fall
     
Loading...