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Featured Is there evil in Heaven? If so can Heaven really be perfect?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Hella Jingles, Jul 24, 2017.

  1. Hella Jingles

    Hella Jingles Member

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    This is an actual question. I argue that evil can exist in Heaven.
    Lucifer was a pillar of Heaven's community. Lucifer was known as the most beautiful angel until while in heaven he turned against God and raised an army.

    God is arguably perfect because he is without evil. Heaven can not be perfect if it can have evil inside of it.

    Can you argue these points? Lucifer turned against God while in Heaven and under the influence of Heaven. Heaven, therefore, can have evil and is thus not perfect.
     
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  2. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    I don't believe in heaven.

    However, in Tanakh Satan is not evil. The evil Satan idea was made up later, with the addition of OTHER religion's beings into the Satan story.

    *
     
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  3. Bob the Unbeliever

    Bob the Unbeliever Well-Known Member

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    I've been arguing this for years: if there is no evil in heaven, there cannot be free will in heaven.

    And the most common argument I've seen for free will, is that god doesn't want robots.

    But the Classic Heaven would be exactly that: robots, if there is no evil and/or free will there.
     
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  4. Hella Jingles

    Hella Jingles Member

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    The bible itself contradicts a lack of Free Will in Heaven. But you can't have Free Will and not have evil. It's a statistical improbability. You have a point.
     
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  5. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    No.

    Might want to speculate about your own religion, or lack thereof, instead of this. What is this, a theoretical argument? Why?
     
  6. Hella Jingles

    Hella Jingles Member

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    Why not?

    Are you arguing that there is not Evil in Heaven and that it is perfect?
     
  7. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    Yes, I am.
    That won't help your speculation, though.
     
  8. Hella Jingles

    Hella Jingles Member

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    Explain Lucifer. No... Explain the army he rose in Heaven. Unless you want to argue that it was not evil for Lucifer to not only turn against God but attempt to usurp him then you can not argue that Evil can not exist in in Heaven. If Evil can exist in Heaven then certainly you can't argue it is perfect, because only God is perfect due to his complete lack of Evil.
     
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  9. Hella Jingles

    Hella Jingles Member

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    I assert that if Free Will exists in Heaven than evil can too.

    I have evidence from the bible that Free Will exists in both Heaven AND Hell.
    Luke 16:24
    "And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame." KJV
    Luke 16:25
    "But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented." KJV

    It doesn't matter what version you read they all say the same thing in these two verses. Go ahead find your own version. Luke 16:24 So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.' Luke 16:25 "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.
     
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  10. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    Even if you discount the Satan part, supposedly even saints are kept under a table for millennia or something. Does that sound great to you? :)
     
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  11. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    There is no name Lucifer in Isaiah, in Tanakh. And that story is about a King of Babylon. It even says the "MAN."

    There is no usurping of YHVH by Satan in Tanakh.

    There is no raising of an army by Satan in Tanakh.

    Think about where you are actually getting those stories.

    *
     
  12. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    How exactly is that evidence of evil in heaven?

    They aren't in Heaven in that story. They are in the Jewish Sheol. The place where ALL the dead, - both good, - and evil, await the end and Final Judgment.

    In the bosom of Abraham, - is a colloquialism, - meaning they rest at peace beside Abraham as they have done right, - and thus have nothing to fear in the Final Judgment. Whereas the other man represents those whom have done evil and are in burning - ANGUISH - not Hell, - because they fear the coming Final Judgment.

    *
     
  13. Hella Jingles

    Hella Jingles Member

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    You're using the original. I'm discounting the current.
     
  14. BSM1

    BSM1 Who's a good boy?

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    Good-evil, heaven-hell, perfect-imperfect: all man-made concepts. Heaven, by it's very nature, has to transcend any of our senses or understanding. If not, "Heaven" becomes so subjective that everyone's concept of heaven has to be completely correct, or completely wrong.
     
  15. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    ask me....I got a story....

    briefly stated.....a line of logic went sour
    the logic is correct!......we humans use it!

    but apparently......even God's Favored must yield to something else!
    or get kicked out
     
  16. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe it is conceivable that Lucifer was outside Heaven when he turned evil.

    There is no evil in Heaven but there is discipline. My wife was in a convent there which meant she was restricted to the building and grounds around it.
     
  17. BSM1

    BSM1 Who's a good boy?

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    No offense, but in what dimension would that come even close to being Heaven?
     
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  18. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe Job indicates otherwise.

    I believe that is fantasy on your part.
     
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  19. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe that beats the alternatives. Mind you that now that she is on earth she is in one of those alternatives and her health is very bad so that she suffers every day. Karma is a *****.
     
  20. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe God wants what is best for us. I don't consider the loss of evil as the loss of free will but simply the loss of ill will. That is one loss I will gladly bear. Good riddance to bad rubbish. However it is still a choice I make and not everyone chooses good over evil. The ideal would be to be able to choose that which is good myself without help from God.
     
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