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Is God real?

LukeH

New Member
Why should someone ask you in particular? Members who are seekers can create threads in the Seekers Circle to get input from a wide variety of people. What would they get out of talking to you in particular? What do you get out of that dialogue? Why do you offer?

Hi Quintessence, good questions. :)

What would someone get out of talking to me?
People who dialogue with me would hear my opinion: I do not claim that it is a perfect opinion - or the best opinion - but I offer what I believe to be true and it matters a great deal to me.

What I get out of that dialogue:
I learn how & what other people think. I learn how to articulate my thoughts more clearly. I enjoy the process of conversing with other people.

Why I offer:
I love my God. I love people. It breaks my heart to know that there are people who don't know the One who created them and is knocking at the door of their hearts, longing for them to open.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Hi Quintessence, good questions. :)

What would someone get out of talking to me?
People who dialogue with me would hear my opinion: I do not claim that it is a perfect opinion - or the best opinion - but I offer what I believe to be true and it matters a great deal to me.

What I get out of that dialogue:
I learn how & what other people think. I learn how to articulate my thoughts more clearly. I enjoy the process of conversing with other people.

Why I offer:
I love my God. I love people. It breaks my heart to know that there are people who don't know the One who created them and is knocking at the door of their hearts, longing for them to open.

Works for me. From the looks of things so far, I think you can make some good contributions to our community provided you keep in mind our rule about proselytizing. :D
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
If you don't believe in the God of the Bible or are unsure about what you believe concerning religion, please feel free to let me know any questions you have and I would love to dialogue with you. All conversation will be conducted in a polite, respectful manner.
Do you think it makes a significant different whether the God of Bible is real? If so, how and why?
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Here's another question. When you say "believe in the God of the Bible," what do you mean by "believe in?" Which of these do you mean:
  • Accept the ontological existence of (e.g., "God is real")
  • Place trust and confidence in (e.g., "God is trustworthy")
  • Honor, worship or uphold the values and ideals of (e.g., "I worship God," or "I model my life after God")
 

LukeH

New Member
Here's another question. When you say "believe in the God of the Bible," what do you mean by "believe in?" Which of these do you mean:
  • Accept the ontological existence of (e.g., "God is real")
  • Place trust and confidence in (e.g., "God is trustworthy")
  • Honor, worship or uphold the values and ideals of (e.g., "I worship God," or "I model my life after God")
All of the above.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Hi Quintessence, good questions. :)

What would someone get out of talking to me?
People who dialogue with me would hear my opinion: I do not claim that it is a perfect opinion - or the best opinion - but I offer what I believe to be true and it matters a great deal to me.

It matters a great deal to you that it is true? Or is true and matters a great deal to you?

What I get out of that dialogue:
I learn how & what other people think. I learn how to articulate my thoughts more clearly. I enjoy the process of conversing with other people.

Cool.

Why I offer:
I love my God. I love people. It breaks my heart to know that there are people who don't know the One who created them and is knocking at the door of their hearts, longing for them to open.

Why is it breaking your heart? Because we are bound to fry in Hell for all eternity?

Ciao

- viole
 

LukeH

New Member
Works for me. From the looks of things so far, I think you can make some good contributions to our community provided you keep in mind our rule about proselytizing. :D
And thanks! :) Appreciate it. And thanks for calling me out on the no preaching rule. :) I will try to more careful about the way I word things. Honestly that is hard for me because religion for me isn't a set of "beliefs." My heart and soul are bound to Christ and that defines my identity. It is hard for me not to want that same joy for others. I am definitely not trying to "force" anyone to believe what I am saying, but I want to offer it honestly. Does that make sense?
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
All of the above.

Nice. So if someone doesn't answer "yes" to all of the above, you'd consider that what? If someone says two out of three with "yes" are they a believer to you? If they say yes to only one out of three, are they a believer? Does it matter which one they say yes to?

To me, the first one of those "believe in" meanings I listed is pretty superficial - the ones that matter are the other two, and particularly the last one which is what really distinguishes different types of theism.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
And thanks! :) Appreciate it. And thanks for calling me out on the no preaching rule. :) I will try to more careful about the way I word things. Honestly that is hard for me because religion for me isn't a set of "beliefs." My heart and soul are bound to Christ and that defines my identity. It is hard for me not to want that same joy for others. I am definitely not trying to "force" anyone to believe what I am saying, but I want to offer it honestly. Does that make sense?

It very much does - everybody likes sharing the things that interest them or that they love. The thing to remember is to not expect (and definitely not demand) that others follow the trail we walk. Main intention of the community is learning and sharing. Heck, I've been known to invite JW's into my place just to chat about stuff. They never kept their appointments with me, but hey... I invited them. :D
 

LukeH

New Member
It matters a great deal to you that it is true? Or is true and matters a great deal to you?



Cool.



Why is it breaking your heart? Because we are bound to fry in Hell for all eternity?

Ciao

- viole

Viole, thanks for your comments. :)

I would not want to believe in something that I did not believe to be true. So yes, it matters a great deal to me because I believe it to be true.

As to your last question, that is not the main reason my heart is broken (although that is a sobering thought). The main reason is that those who do not have a personal relationship with God are missing out on the greatest joy and pleasure that exists and the reason for which they were created. That breaks my heart.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
Mr. Platt,

I believe a great many things. :) Like you, and every other human being, I have an entire worldview which is shaped by my knowledge of God, the world, and personal experience. I will attempt to give you a general overview of what I believe concerning the basic branches of philosophy and you may seize on whichever aspect you like and we can further discuss that topic.
From my point of view as an impartial observer I could in theory read statements like yours from every theist on the planet. Some would be similar to yours and some would vary greatly. Then I would start to notice patterns. Like similar statements seem to come from the same geographical location or cultural group because people generally adopt the belief they are born into. And then I would imagine statements coming from all theists that have ever lived. The Vikings describing their gods, the Greek their gods etc etc. And guess what? All those people believe their gods actually exist.

So I find that asking "how did theism and the belief in gods evolve" is a much more interesting question than "does one or more of those thousands of gods humanity has invented actually exist?"
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Viole, thanks for your comments. :)

You are welcome.

I would not want to believe in something that I did not believe to be true. So yes, it matters a great deal to me because I believe it to be true.

Obviously. But that could lead to a recursive loop. Why do you believe it is true? Because you would not want to believe that something is true unless you believe that that something being true, is true? And so on.

So, in order to prune the recursive tree, why do you think that it is true?

As to your last question, that is not the main reason my heart is broken (although that is a sobering thought). The main reason is that those who do not have a personal relationship with God are missing out on the greatest joy and pleasure that exists and the reason for which they were created. That breaks my heart.

I work in a very international environment. My Hindu friend told me the same. Apparently, there is a great joy associated to the belief that Vishnu is real.

Do you think he has a point?

Ciao

- viole
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If you don't believe in the God of the Bible or are unsure about what you believe concerning religion, please feel free to let me know any questions you have and I would love to dialogue with you. All conversation will be conducted in a polite, respectful manner.
I'm not sure what "believe in the Bible" has to do with belief in God. Are they the same thing? What sort of belief is that? That it exists? I think everyone believes that. That believing in it is equivalent to belief in God, seems a bit odd. Why did you include them in the same sentence? Are they equal to you? What does this belief look like? Does it include worshipping the book? Do you become one with it the way you might with God in Spirit?
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
Why I offer:
I love my God. I love people. It breaks my heart to know that there are people who don't know the One who created them and is knocking at the door of their hearts, longing for them to open.
From my point of view, if God knocked on my door I would immediately call the police and the military and everybody I could get a hold of. Based on his autobiography he's guilty of everything from genocide to incitement to murder to infanticide to homophobia to... don't know where it ends.
 

LukeH

New Member
You are welcome.



Obviously. But that could lead to a recursive loop. Why do you believe it is true? Because you would not want to believe that something is true unless you believe that that something being true, is true? And so on.

So, in order to prune the recursive tree, why do you think that it is true?



I work in a very international environment. My Hindu friend told me the same. Apparently, there is a great joy associated to the belief that Vishnu is real.

Do you think he has a point?

Ciao

- viole

Viole, did you read my longer post on the second page of these discussions? (post # 38) That is a very basic outline of what I believe and why. If you have a more specific objection based on something I said in that post, I would be glad to answer you.

And with regards to your Hindu friend, I see the point that you are making: "personal experience" is not useful "evidence" in validating an idea due to its subjectivity. However, since you asked for my opinion, here it is: there may be a certain "joy" in believing in a false god (which is what I believe Vishnu to be), but it is not an eternal or deeply satisfying joy. But, as I said, there is no way to validate this due to its subjectivity.

I also have a couple questions for you: I am genuinely interested to know what you think and am in no way trying to attack your view or offend you in any way. I just want to understand your reasoning with regards to the following issues.

First: As a naturalist, I assume you believe in the theory of evolution. Is that the case? If so, do you believe that all people are equally “developed?” Or are there some people that are “fitter for survival” than others? Are there certain groups of people that show more development than others? How can you avoid the issue of racism if you view evolution as the mechanism by which humans came into being?

Likewise, as a naturalist, how do you view ethics? Is there such a thing as morality? Is it “wrong” for people to commit murder, or is morality just a social construct? If morality is not based on an absolute standard of good vs evil, but is rather a general cultural opinion subject to changes, on what basis should one submit to such “moral consensus” if it is bound to change? Was it “wrong” for people to keep slaves? If slavery comes back into fashion in 100 years, is that okay with you? On what basis is slavery not appropriate?
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
well one of the biggest reason for polytheism to predates because initial scriptures were corrupted by communities for their own gain. If you do some research Hindu religion which is the oldest religion has scriptures stating that there is only one God.
This is actually false. Vedic scriptures are polytheistic overall. Its the Upanisads that analyze the Vedic Gods as emanations of the same ultimate reality and they come later.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Mr. Platt,

I believe a great many things. :) Like you, and every other human being, I have an entire worldview which is shaped by my knowledge of God, the world, and personal experience. I will attempt to give you a general overview of what I believe concerning the basic branches of philosophy and you may seize on whichever aspect you like and we can further discuss that topic.

As you read the following, please bear in mind the nature of rationality and presuppositions: in order to reason at all, one must hold presuppositions. Because no person can know everything (no matter how many PHDs she/he may have) one must hold certain presuppositions in order to reason at all (for a fuller - and superior - explanation of this idea, see Van Til's works). I certainly do not claim to have all the answers but here is a rough sketch of how I view the world:

Metaphysics (nature of reality):

· The Trinitarian God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) is the source of all truth and is ultimate reality. He is eternal, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, immutable, personal, loving, merciful, just, and good. He always has been and always will be. Everything that exists, other than God himself, is ontologically dependent on him. Truth, therefore, is not a construct of the mind or relative, but is an external reality which is unchangeable.

· When God created the world he made it good. The created world originally had no sin, suffering, or death. The first man, Adam, and the first woman, Eve, were created in the image of God for the purpose of glorifying him by enjoying him.

· When God created Adam and Eve, he had a “works based” relationship with them. This means that their perfect life in the garden and the intimate and unbroken relationship they had with God was contingent on their obedience to him. God placed two trees in the garden: “the tree of the knowledge of good and evil”, and “the tree of life.” God forbade Adam from eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

· Yet Adam and Eve chose to believe the lie of the serpent – namely, that they could become like God if they ate from the “tree of the knowledge of good and evil.”

· The result of Adam and Eve’s sin was the entrance of sin into creation and the loss of perfect relationship with God. Because God is perfect and cannot abide (or live with) sin, he expelled Adam and Eve from the Garden.

· Yet God had a plan to send a Savior into the world to redeem humanity and pay the price of their disobedience with the blood of his own Son, Jesus Christ. All of the Old Testament scriptures tell the story of redemption through types and shadows (hence the sacrificial systems, Israel’s’ typological theocratic monarchy, the prophets, etc.) heralding the coming of Christ.

Epistemology (how one can know reality):

· I believe truth to be knowable in part – because God is Truth, the world he created is governed by laws (the laws of science, reason, logic, etc.) which make the pursuit of truth possible – if it weren’t for the laws of nature, scientific discovery would be futile; if it weren’t for the laws of reason and logic, or dialogue here would be futile. If there were no such thing as truth (or if it were entirely unknowable) there would be no grounds for rational discourse on any level.

· The senses – the senses alone are not sufficient in coming to a knowledge of the Truth, but they play a significant role. Through means of the senses, one can observe the physical world and gather data.

· The Mind – Obviously, mere acquisition of data does little to aid one in coming to an accurate understanding of the world. It is through logical reasoning (mental processes) that one must interpret empirical findings. Through formation and syntheses of hypotheses, theories, and scientific “laws,” one can slowly come to a more accurate understanding of the physical world.

· Special Revelation – Yet truth is not limited to the physical world alone: there are also Spiritual realities. Of course, these realities are not physical in nature and thus are not able to be observed by means of the senses alone. Again, one must ask: “How can one know that there are spiritual realities?” Because of their sinful hearts, humans do not want to submit to God or even admit that He exists. But at the same time our conscience bears witness to God’s existence. In other words, everyone has a knowledge of God, yet they obscure this truth that is written on their consciences. The main reason people do not believe in the true God is volitional, not intellectual. This is where the Scriptures and the work of the Holy Spirit come in. Not only has God chosen to reveal himself generally through nature, but also through his inspired Word (the scriptures of the Old and New Testaments) and through the work of his Holy Spirit in opening spiritually blind eyes. The Word and the Spirit work together to reveal to men and women their need for Him, His grace and sufficiency, His beauty, His immense worth, and the work of Christ on the Cross. It is by placing our faith in the person of Jesus Christ that we can come to know God personally. Honestly, there is no way I or anyone else can “make” you believe this. Yet I know this God personally and talk with Him every day. He is my hope. He is my joy. He loves me with the perfect love that my heart has always yearned for. Life in a sinful, fallen world is extremely painful. No-one can escape the wounds of broken relationships, the death of loved ones, or physical suffering. Yet Christ offers the hope of a perfectly restored relationship with God eternal life with Him – a life which will be devoid of all tears, suffering & pain.
It would be interesting to see if you can justify holding these to be true features of God, humanity and the world above reasonable doubt.......
I myself is of a Socratic bent. Despite much progress, I think humans are nowhere near a level of understanding that rationally allows them to hold a complete world-view with certainty. The best that can be done for now is to carefully query our experiences privately and communally in order to figure what aspects of reality can be known with reasonable certainty, what aspects are more uncertain, what are just interesting speculations that help us spur new investigations, and what aspects are still too far out to properly formulate a coherent question even. Then, after such an assessmet, one can speak about how to weigh the certainties and uncertainties of these partial and often contending fragments of the worldviews in order to most reasonably organize and guide our lives.

So, when I see folks here professing certainties about fully formed worldviews, I will follow Socrates and seek out the justifications (or their lack) that lurk underneath such certainties. :)
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Viole, did you read my longer post on the second page of these discussions? (post # 38) That is a very basic outline of what I believe and why. If you have a more specific objection based on something I said in that post, I would be glad to answer you.

The size of my objections would be proportional to the size of your post. I prefer little and focused objections rather than shotgun rebuttals that inevitably lead to a dilution of focus.

I hope you are not a presupposionalist (I will never spell that right). On second thought, I hope you are :)

And with regards to your Hindu friend, I see the point that you are making: "personal experience" is not useful "evidence" in validating an idea due to its subjectivity. However, since you asked for my opinion, here it is: there may be a certain "joy" in believing in a false god (which is what I believe Vishnu to be), but it is not an eternal or deeply satisfying joy. But, as I said, there is no way to validate this due to its subjectivity.

True. So, how can I validate your subjectivity? Heve you tried the joy of being a hindu?

I also have a couple questions for you: I am genuinely interested to know what you think and am in no way trying to attack your view or offend you in any way. I just want to understand your reasoning with regards to the following issues.

You can attack my views and try to offend me at any time. I am incapable of being offended because of the views I hold. I never reported or ignored anyone in my debating history. And I never will. I actually tend to follow people who strongly disagree with me.

So, say what you think without getting worried of how you say it. At least to me.

First: As a naturalist, I assume you believe in the theory of evolution. Is that the case?

Of course not. I believe only in things that have no evidence. Like life on other planets. Once I have the evidence, I stop believing and start knowing.

Therefore, I do not believe that evolution is true. I know that evolution is true.

If so, do you believe that all people are equally “developed?” Or are there some people that are “fitter for survival” than others? Are there certain groups of people that show more development than others? How can you avoid the issue of racism if you view evolution as the mechanism by which humans came into being?

Any moral consequences of accepting X, do not influence X being true or not. That would be a non sequitur. So, even if I believed that we should artificially select the strong from the weak, by killing the latter, that would not bear any weight towards evolution being true or not.

Likewise, as a naturalist, how do you view ethics? Is there such a thing as morality? Is it “wrong” for people to commit murder, or is morality just a social construct? If morality is not based on an absolute standard of good vs evil, but is rather a general cultural opinion subject to changes, on what basis should one submit to such “moral consensus” if it is bound to change? Was it “wrong” for people to keep slaves? If slavery comes back into fashion in 100 years, is that okay with you? On what basis is slavery not appropriate?

Good point. For instance, I think it is a moral imperative to allow gays to marry. Maybe what I feel as a moral imperative comes directly from God, who can say? And I strongly believe that the ones opposing that, will be remembered as we remember the slavists today. So maybe you have a point.

Do you agree?

Ciao

- viole
 
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