Is Christmas Pagan?

[mikkel_the_dane]

"Early Christians wanted to convert pagans, Shaw said, but they were also fascinated by their traditions.

Christians of that period are quite interested in paganism," he said. "It's obviously something they think is a bad thing, but it's also something they think is worth remembering. It's what their ancestors did." Perhaps that's why pagan traditions remained even as Christianity took hold. "

Ronald Hutton, a historian at Bristol University

NO!!! That is an actual academic book. We can't have that!!!
So here is something for you.
Philosophy of Religion Online Text Textbook

 

[Debater Slayer]

I think the bottom line here is that denying the cross-cultural influences on some Christian traditions, including Christmas, is usually done by apologists and Christian supremacists who believe such mixing would "taint" Christianity. Similarly, describing Christmas as an "appropriated" or "stolen" pagan holiday is usually done by anti-Christians who rush to this conclusion despite lack of sufficient evidence.

Both extremes strike me as unreasonable and more ideologically motivated than evidence-based. Personally, I see no problem with such cross-cultural influence per se, and I also don't believe Christmas simply sprang up as a plagiarised form of any pagan holiday. It's just that I also don't believe modern-day Christmas traditions are entirely Christian in origin and aren't mixed with some other cultural practices.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

If I may opine for a few moments, I personally expect faithful Christians, and also other devout religious people, to passionately argue that Christmas isn't pagan in the least. Likewise, I personally expect non-Christians, and other non-religious people, to fervently argue that Christmas is, in fact, rooted in multiple pagan rituals. But in reality, both sides of this old debate present an impressive amount of evidence in an attempt to substantiate their argument. So, my question is this, which one of these sides is correct or is this debate a never-ending circular argument that will always go nowhere fast? On a side note, I realize that some Christians may consider Christmas to be pagan, while some non-Christians may not consider Christmas to be pagan, but for the sake of argument, I'd like to focus on the first two examples I mentioned. Thanks, in advance, for your answer. I appreciate it.

My post got lost in the shuffle. FWIW, I think Debate Slayer's post is a good answer to the question I asked in my post.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

My post got lost in the shuffle. And on a side note, I think DebateSlayer's post is a good explanation.

See the post above yours.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

See the post above yours.

I read it, and commented that I thought it was a good explanation. I didn't see his post until after I re-posted mine.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I read it, and commented that I thought it was a good explanation. I didn't see his post until after I re-posted mine.

Well, in general don't take for granted there is only always 2 positions. Sometimes there are more.

 

[Altfish]

Some here:

OK, those are alternative views, many from a highly religious point of view, but why do

 

[Rival]

Not sure why so many atheists seem to desperately want Christmas to be Pagan.

It's not. Just get over it. Your anti-Christian apologetic is wrong. It's just more Reformed anti-Catholic propaganda. Why is this so unacceptable? And if you love Paganism so much, just become a Pagan.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Santa Clause Christmas trees elves etc..................................is it Pagan?

In America, yes. Not entirely, but very much so.

The American version of Christmas is very different from the Mexican one. The Mexican Christmas is still a desert holiday, with magi, mangers, and baby Jesus, but the American version is a North Pole holiday. The baby Jesus has been replaced by Santa as the central figure. The camels and the sand have been replaced by reindeer and snow. Joseph and Mary are gone, and Rudolph and Frosty are in. The wise men are out and Santa's helpers in. "Silent Night" and "Little Town of Bethlehem" compete with "Jingle Bells" and "Grandma Got Run Over By A Reindeer." And the Christmas trees, yule logs, tinsel, Christmas lights, holly wreathes, flocking, and mistletoe sold at Wal-Mart are further testimony of the pagan infusion into American Christmas.

And the idea of winter solstice celebrations is widespread, as are the gods with similar stories to the resurrection. From Cookie Cutter Christs - Freedom From Religion Foundation

Horus
Horus was born of the virgin Isis in Egypt around 1550 BC. He and his mother were of dark skin. Horus as an infant received gifts from three kings, and was crucified on a cross. There are about 200 close parallels of the careers of Horus and Jesus Christ.

Adonis
The god Adonis was born of a virgin mother called Ishtar (Easter), depicted like the Virgin Mary with her divine child in her arms. Likewise, she was hailed as the Queen of Heaven. Adonis was regarded as both the son and husband of his mother Ishtar, as God the Father and God the Son. This Babylonian legend is an archaic version of the Christian nativity story-God the Son incarnating as Jesus, while at the same time he is God the Father. (Was Jesus both Son and Husband of the Virgin Mary?) The worship of Adonis (Tammuz) was quite popular among the Semites of Western Asia around 2000 BC. Adonis was crucified, and resurrected. He was sacrificed as was Jesus to save humankind.

Not sure why so many atheists seem to desperately want Christmas to be Pagan. It's not. Just get over it. Your anti-Christian apologetic is wrong. It's just more Reformed anti-Catholic propaganda. Why is this so unacceptable? And if you love Paganism so much, just become a Pagan.

Why are you so averse to recognizing what is obvious?

I don't see an argument, just a claim and a lamentation. I presented an argument. Can you rebut it?

 

[Brickjectivity]

of that period

Key words: "Of that period." Thank you!

Hi I am Brick. You're new to me, so I'm still getting a feel for what kinds of posts you make. You have a recognizable avatar though so it won't take long. With most people I don't even begin to see their avatars for, like, 3 years. Loved your show bigbangtheory. I empathized with that poor man in the bookshop who had an art degree. He needed Dr. Who or something to fix him up. A time travel jaunt would have done him much good. Of that period.

I think the bottom line here is that denying the cross-cultural influences on some Christian traditions, including Christmas, is usually done by apologists and Christian supremacists who believe such mixing would "taint" Christianity.

Yes, typically by people such as myself who grow up under ministries similar to Kenneth Copeland's. We start out with a very different view of Christianity than catholics do. We often are similar to some of the baptists, some of the other large churches. We often have separate Christian private academies in our churches.

That is typically a sign that we want our kids to have a different version of history and a sheltered education, sheltered from potentially evil influences in public schools. Not every private school is that way, but most of the ones that are attached to church buildings are I think. Students there will use a different set of books. I think its a small but important percentage of people who grow up with this education.

I was mostly privately schooled or home schooled. I had 3 years of public education out of 12 (typically every US student must have 12 years of school by law). When I entered public school it was as an alien. I entered public school as a strong creationist and as someone who was completely unfamiliar with catholic or any church traditions or strong history except an Abeka history course curriculum. I had some knowledge about middle ages but from a reformed Christian perspective somewhat different than what was provided to most students. I was in classes where I was chortled at for expressing that I was a creationist. It was not my fault.

On the other hand I was more interested in my education than most public school students I met. About 10% of the top students believed in their education and fought hard for good grades. I was surprised at how many students took high school as just something to be endured. That was my view of public school as an insular and alien student coming from a private Christian school. I took hard classes like Physics, Biology, Advanced Computer Science. I took anything I could.

That being said most people were not looking for the hardest courses they could get, and I doubt most of my fellow students from that private Christian academy ever overcame their stunted and unfortunately backward science education or history education. It was unfortunately precisely that bad in my opinion.

But I hope that explains and demonstrates to you how sometimes people try but can't get around the obstacles society places before them. It may seem like people are very obtuse, sometimes. We are all somewhat insulated from new ideas, but a lot of what seems like resistance in individuals is actually from parents trying to keep us in a certain format that they understand. Your parents can accelerate you forward or can attach an anchor to you, and they often don't know which is better.

 

[Rival]

Why are you so averse to recognizing what is obvious?

I don't see an argument, just a claim and a lamentation. I presented an argument. Can you rebut it?

Augustus has posted arguments over and over again all over the forum; as have Vouthon and myself, and others. This topic is decades old and has been well and truly debunked.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Augustus has posted arguments over and over again all over the forum; as have Vouthon and myself, and others. This topic is decades old and has been well and truly debunked.

Do you think recognizing that the way Christmas is currently celebrated has influences from other cultures amounts to saying it is pagan wholesale or in its origin?

 

[Rival]

Do you think recognizing that the way Christmas is currently celebrated has influences from other cultures amounts to saying it is pagan wholesale or in its origin?

No, but there are many who think Christmas is wholesale Pagan. This is clear nonsense.

 

[Debater Slayer]

No, but there are many who think Christmas is wholesale Pagan. This is clear nonsense.

It may well be, but I have seen some Christian apologists deny any cultural influences altogether and claim Christianity is superior in the process. I don't think that's any less nonsensical or harmful.

 

[Rival]

It may well be, but I have seen some Christian apologists deny any cultural influences altogether and claim Christianity is superior in the process. I don't think that's any less nonsensical or harmful.

The main problem is folks taking Christmas traditions that are no older than the 19th century and somehow declaring they go back to pre-Christian times. It's absurd and nonsensical.

 

[Augustus]

OK, those are alternative views, many from a highly religious point of view, but why do

Alternative as in scholarly and based on evidence rather than pop-culture myths that people simply assume are true out of prejudice, yes.

Why do you say "highly religious" though? Those are all from scholarly journals.

Every time a "Rationalist" here is presented with peer-reviewed, secular scholarship on an issue about religion that challenges their assumptions, the first response is to dismiss the source as biased.

Never a rational evaluation of the evidence, or an attempt to make a counter argument. Simply state the source is biased and can thus be dismissed out of hand.

Every. Single. Time.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Augustus has posted arguments over and over again all over the forum; as have Vouthon and myself, and others. This topic is decades old and has been well and truly debunked.

Disagree about the debunking part. I've seen the arguments of both of those posters on this thread, and neither one made an argument that there is not a pagan presence in the holiday. Both focused on the date December 25, for example, but the larger perspective is of winter solstice holidays, not the precise date, which are important in many pagan traditions. Vouthon also argued that it was the Lutherans, perhaps Luther himself, that introduced the Christmas tree to Christianity, but that doesn't mean that it wasn't borrowed from pagans. And that Santa was a Christian innovation based on a Christian martyr. From Wiki:

"Germanic paganism, Wodan, and Christianization
Prior to Christianization, the Germanic peoples (including the English) celebrated a midwinter event called Yule (Old English geola or giuli).[22] With the Christianization of Germanic Europe, numerous traditions were absorbed from Yuletide celebrations into modern Christmas. During this period, supernatural and ghostly occurrences were said to increase in frequency, such as the Wild Hunt, a ghostly procession through the sky.[citation needed] The leader of the Wild Hunt is frequently attested as the god Odin (Wodan), bearing (among many names) the names Jólnir, meaning "Yule figure", and Langbarðr, meaning "long-beard", in Old Norse. Wodan's role during the Yuletide period has been theorized as having influenced concepts of St. Nicholas in a variety of facets, including his long white beard and his gray horse for nightly rides (compare Odin's horse Sleipnir) or his reindeer in North American tradition.[25] Folklorist Margaret Baker maintains that "the appearance of Santa Claus or Father Christmas, whose day is the 25th of December, owes much to Odin, the old blue-hooded, cloaked, white-bearded Giftbringer of the north, who rode the midwinter sky on his eight-footed steed Sleipnir, visiting his people with gifts. Odin, transformed into Father Christmas, then Santa Claus, prospered with St Nicholas and the Christchild, became a leading player on the Christmas stage."[26] In Finland, Santa Claus is called Joulupukki (direct translation 'Christmas Goat').[27] The flying reindeer could symbolize the use of fly agaric by Sámi shamans.[28]"

And

"Yule ("Yule time" or "Yule season") is a festival historically observed by the Germanic peoples. Scholars have connected the original celebrations of Yule to the Wild Hunt, the god Odin, and the pagan Anglo-Saxon Mōdraniht. Later departing from its pagan roots, Yule underwent Christianised reformulation, resulting in the term Christmastide. Some present-day Christmas customs and traditions such as the Yule log, Yule goat, Yule boar, Yule singing, and others may have connections to older pagan Yule traditions. Cognates to Yule are still used in the Scandinavian languages as well as in Finnish and Estonian to describe Christmas and other festivals occurring during the winter holiday season."

This looks like an interesting one. Here, Tiamat plays the role of slain and risen god:

Zagmuk, which literally means "beginning of the year", is a Mesopotamian festival celebrating the New Year. The feast fell in December[1] and lasted about 12 days.[2] It celebrates the triumph of Marduk, the patron deity of Babylon, over the forces of Chaos, symbolized in later times by Tiamat. The battle between Marduk and Chaos lasts 12 days, as does the festival of Zagmuk. In Uruk the festival was associated with the god An, the Sumerian god of the night sky. Both are essentially equivalent in all respects to the Akkadian "Akitu" festival. In some variations, Marduk is slain by Tiamat on the winter solstice and resurrected on the vernal equinox.

Anyway, to all the pagans reading along, happy solstice holiday:

Happy Amaterasu, Merry Beaivi Day, Happy Brumalia, Merry Choimus, Merry Christmas, Happy Dongzhi, Happy Devorius Riuri, Merry Deygan, Happy Dies Natalis Solis Invicti, Happy Dong Zhi, Happy Festivus, Merry Goru, Merry Grianstad an Gheimhridh, Happy Hogmanay, Happy HumanLight, Merry Inti Raymi, Happy Jonkonnu, God Jul, Merry Kaleda, Merry Korochun, Happy Kwanzaa, Happy Lussi Night, Merry Modresnach, Happy Pancha Ganapati, Merry Rozhanitsa Feast, Happy Sanghamitta Day, Io Saturnalia, Merry Seva Zistane, Merry Shabe Celle, Happy Solar New Year, Happy Soyal, Happy Winter Solstice, Merry Wayeb, Happy Yalda, Happy Yule, Happy Zagmuk, and Merry Ziemassvetki.

 

[Altfish]

Alternative as in scholarly and based on evidence rather than pop-culture myths that people simply assume are true out of prejudice, yes.

Why do you say "highly religious" though? Those are all from scholarly journals.

Every time a "Rationalist" here is presented with peer-reviewed, secular scholarship on an issue about religion that challenges their assumptions, the first response is to dismiss the source as biased.

Never a rational evaluation of the evidence, or an attempt to make a counter argument. Simply state the source is biased and can thus be dismissed out of hand.

Every. Single. Time.

Those sources were mainly religiously biased

 

[Augustus]

Horus
Horus was born of the virgin Isis in Egypt around 1550 BC. He and his mother were of dark skin. Horus as an infant received gifts from three kings, and was crucified on a cross. There are about 200 close parallels of the careers of Horus and Jesus Christ.

"Rationalists" really will believe literally anything that supports their ideological prejudices

As credulous as young earth creationists.

Horus' "virgin" birth involves Isis making a magical golden wang for Osiris after his original John Thomas got eaten by a fish. "Virgin" births and husbands with magical golden schlongs tend not to be the most logical of combinations

The rest is equally wrong.

 

[Augustus]

Those sources were mainly religiously biased

No they aren't. They are all from secular, peer-reviewed journals.

You have no rational arguments to support your position, you just made that up so you can cling to your emotionally satisfying myths.

It's the Secular Humanist M.O. though, so no point in expecting any different when it comes to the history of religion