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Featured Is Christmas Pagan?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Riders, Dec 20, 2021.

  1. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

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    Santa Clause Christmas trees elves etc..................................is it Pagan?
     
  2. Rival

    Rival Divine Adoratrice of Amun
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    No.
     
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  3. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

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    Ok what proof do you have?
     
  4. sun rise

    sun rise Śvāna Dharma
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  5. Vouthon

    Vouthon Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
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    No.

    The dating of the feast of Christmas on the 25th December by the ancient church had absolutely nothing to do with any preceding Pagan festivals. There weren't any on the 25th (the Sol Invictus argument is not persuasive or backed by evidence), rather the festival of Christ's [Nativity] Mass originated in the third century and was derived from theological calendrical calculations.

    Of the examples you cite above: Santa Claus is a folkoric and legendary version of the historic fourth century St. Nicholas of Myra; the Christmas tree is first attested in Lutheran Germany (many say Martin Luther, the Protestant Reformer, actually started the practice as we know it) with antecedents in the 'trees of life' that featured in medieval Christmas Eve plays and a Spanish Cistercian tradition in the 15th century, while Elves are not traditionally associated with Christmas but were first attached to it as recently as 1850 in the United States.
     
    #5 Vouthon, Dec 20, 2021
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  6. Sheldon

    Sheldon Veteran Member

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    Saturnalia

    Winter Solstice

    Yule

    A Christian holiday that hijacked several pagan religious festivals.
     
    #6 Sheldon, Dec 20, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2021
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  7. Rival

    Rival Divine Adoratrice of Amun
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    Please not this crap again.
     
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  8. Rival

    Rival Divine Adoratrice of Amun
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    I will try answering tomorrow if others don't already. I'm in bed :)
     
  9. Guitar's Cry

    Guitar's Cry The "I" in Reality

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    Pagan in the sense that winter celebrations are endemic to humanity due to change of seasons or agricultural cycles.

    The modern traditions are a mix of both pagan and Christian traditions, with many of the Christian traditions also likely having non-Christian roots.
     
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  10. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    No. O earth is a planet with a heavens that owns a moon that cycles around the sun.

    As it's own 12 month one cycle.....
    Constant. Itself.

    Celebration. Humans live. Humans celebrate is a human choice. Is not a status.

    Ownership of the state cycle not real.

    I am owner of gods stone ship said men as I live on it.

    O the God stone ship first is not owned by you. It is itself. Just like you are a self.

    God does not procreate a new God.

    Humans have sex to inherit humans sin. Changed human life.

    So we said have no sex and own no sick mutated baby. Don't have sex your human brother enslaved us in civilization. A teaching.

    Each year due to human life sacrificed we celebrated that life had survived and was healing as no science existed. What paganism means. We no longer starved.

    Humans who healed with herbal remedies.
    Humans who shared food and sustenance.
    Humans who appreciated earths ice saviour allowing DNA not to be burnt to death

    Paganism.
     
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  11. Viker

    Viker Spirit in Black

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    Elves and trees maybe. Santa and Christmas, no.

    Christmas, to me, is what early Christians and pagans living together without murdering each other looks like.

    The way most of us view Christmas it is mostly European.
     
  12. lukethethird

    lukethethird Well-Known Member

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    It's beginning to look a lot like consumerism...
     
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  13. greenboy21x

    greenboy21x Member

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    @Rival is this OP your alter ego? :D
     
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  14. mangalavara

    mangalavara Your Account
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    There's the popular Westernized Christmas with its Northern European (I guess?) stuff, and then there's the much older Nativity of Our Lord celebrated by Eastern Christians. Ultimately, there is nothing 'pagan' about celebrating the birth of Jesus.
     
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  15. Guitar's Cry

    Guitar's Cry The "I" in Reality

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    While it's likely that the 25th of December was chosen for Jesus's birth due to it being 9 months from March 25 (which was due to the idea that folks died on the same day they were conceived), March 25th appears based on the concept of Spring renewal which is very pagan and not a strictly Abrahamic concept.

    Also, a slew of pagan celebrations occurred from the fall equinox into January, like Yule, Saturnalia, Haloea.

    ...mixed in with elements of various other supernatural beings that were more likely to wear a big fur coat than good ol' necromancing Nicholas. The mostly American-Nast/Clark-Moore/Sundblom Santa Claus is a melting pot of various elements that appear to have nothing to do with Nicholas other than stuffing gifts in socks.

    And also following the tradition of various non-christian cultures of bringing green plants in during the solstice, including the Romans during Saturnalia. Whether this is an example of convergent evolution rooted in our need for seeing growing things in winter, Christmas trees, wreathes, mistletoe, etc. can certainly be cross cutural.

    But are now, and have been a part of other cultures' solstice traditions (such as the Nordic Nisse).
     
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  16. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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  17. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    Everything in this fallen world has been tainted or has pagan connections. I think Christians are called to redeem the things of the world for the glory of God. Certainly, acknowledging the momentous event of the birth of Christ and joyously celebrating God’s gift of His Son and promised Savior is worthy of celebrating, in my view.
     
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  18. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    O earth existed.
    Heavens existed as everything.
    Human life.

    Question did the saviour be born on Christmas day 25th.

    Didn't human teachings say CH spirit that arose out of God earth became the immaculate?

    Yes.

    The birth place of the heavenly spirit is stable. In space womb. Where the holy star is seen wandering.

    Day and night time. As space the womb wanders around earth so we see stars. Holy state.

    Reborn is the advice every year the saviour returns as ice winter itself versus summer.

    Is Not about the heavens first.

    It said the saviour that keeps life's balances was reborn end of every year as a cyclic birth belonging to gods earth.

    Was gods only son. Born with the beasts.

    ABBA gods heavenly coloured gases Multi in mantle as the cloak of heavens.

    Not God. Not Jesus's father either. Coat of colours.

    The heavens.

    Bright new shiny star. We see a very bright star again.

    Winter gets reborn.

    Has winter changed. Rebirth.

    Is winter reborn expected to change and be removed?

    Scientist theists say ice is melting. Who theories that Jesus will be removed by science causes? Rebirth.

    Human men theists do.

    In fully Aware mind notified man's studies. Ice.

    Told. Taught. Idealised. Realised by wise men. Sciences owned predicted status.

    Theme man on earth will live forever more because of Christ mas day. Returned rebirth advised.

    Winters return.

    A teaching.

    Winter keeps the CH gases heavenly present with the status north pole darkness theme. Present. As the gift of life is presence itself.

    Did Christ go away out of the heavens?

    Yes said science the body was sacrificed. Humans suffered because of it.

    So we taught never sacrifice the holy body. CH heavens and ice the saviour. Reborn balances.

    Christ will exist in the heavens because rebirth winter freeze existed.

    Never change it said human wisdom.

    Life mourned human death as Christ spirit had been heavenly sacrifice.

    Babies our human life continuance so innocent deserve to be born healthy and holy.

    What everyone awaited humans firstborn DNA genesis healing.

    As each year counted ice being replenished and not removed.

    Visions of father's spirit coming back down by returned water was witnessed many times. His healing of our life.

    We cry for our life lost by heavenly changes. Innocent babies.
     
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  19. Sgt. Pepper

    Sgt. Pepper RF's resident Beatlemaniac. ☮ and ❤

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    If I may opine for a few moments, I personally expect faithful Christians, and also other devout religious people, to passionately argue that Christmas isn't pagan in the least. Likewise, I personally expect non-Christians, and other non-religious people, to fervently argue that Christmas is, in fact, rooted in multiple pagan rituals. But in reality, both sides of this old debate present an impressive amount of evidence in an attempt to substantiate their argument. So, my question is this, which one of these sides is correct or is this debate a never-ending circular argument that will always go nowhere fast? On a side note, I realize that some Christians may consider Christmas to be pagan, while some non-Christians may not consider Christmas to be pagan, but for the sake of argument, I'd like to focus on the first two examples I mentioned. Thanks, in advance, for your answer. I appreciate it.
     
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  20. Debater Slayer

    Debater Slayer Veteran Member
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    I wouldn't be surprised if there were some overlap between specific modern-day Christmas traditions and pagan ones, but whether this means Christmas is a co-opting of a pagan holiday is a different story. It isn't uncommon for religious and cultural traditions to borrow elements from each other when they coexist or arise, whether partially or fully, from other traditions. In Egypt, for example, Mawlid al-Nabi ("Birth of the Prophet") is a national holiday despite having no strictly Islamic origins and actually being considered a bid'a ("innovation," a negative designation in Islamic doctrine) by some leading Islamic scholars throughout Islam's history.

    Humanity has expressed celebration and reverence of different seasons and natural phenomena in various cultures, sometimes with traditions bearing varying degrees of resemblance to each other. Eid al-Adha, one of Islam's two main holidays, involves animal sacrifice to Allah--a practice not unlike other sacrificial rituals found in various cultures throughout history.

    Does this mean Eid al-Adha is a co-opting of pagan rituals? Of course not: there is no evidence to conclusively suggest such a connection. What it definitely demonstrates, however, is that humans are more similar than we think both throughout history and across different cultures and countries. In my opinion, focusing on how to best coexist and respect each other's rights to have diverse cultures, traditions, and identities is much more important and useful than endlessly debating whether or not one practice "appropriated" another--except in cases where that actually affects anyone's lives or human rights, which is a very rare scenario nowadays.
     
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