Is Christmas Pagan?

[Sheldon]

As our winter festival we celebrate saturnalia, the kids prefer it because they get more presents ;-).

I'm onboard, as long I can treat it as a secular holiday, and it involves feasting and some grog, I'm ok with it. The grandchildren might take some convincing.

It need not be authentically pagan if it contains elements that are clearly non-Christian and can be somewhat traced back to other sources, even if murky. As I previously stated, completely detailed and authentic (as in from the people themselves and not Christian writers) is nearly impossible. But we can surely speculate, and it is worth it to better understand the people as well as our modern folklore and customs.

Well quite, and no one has suggested that Christianity plagiaries xmas entirely from pagan festivals as verbatim copies. Also we can do more than speculate, as the dates match up, as do some of the ways xmas is celebrated, and of course you'd have to believe one religion was unique in being able to avoid being moulded (at least in part) by the cultures and societies that it exists in. Given we know this isn't the case, as there are now over 45000 Christian denominations globally, that is not a very compelling argument.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

The problem is it is a relatively modern practice not an ancient one.

When folk in early modern Europe started giving gifts it was not because they suddenly remembered Saturnalia from a millennium ago and wanted to ape it.

This is a problem with almost all "pagan" traditions at Christmas: they are newer innovations not continuations from the distant past.

I dunno, Renaissance European folks did tend to want to "ape" the good ol' days of Roman glory. We get a lot of good art from that.

Likely, the "newer" innovations have roots that are continuations from the past. While gift-giving exploded during the Industrial Revolution, it was a thing folks did during Saturnalia and Yule, and that, even to do this day, Christians justify it through St. Nick and the 3 Wise guys shows that the importance of giving gifts during the winter months is extremely important to human communities. That we CAN connect it to other winter celebrations in the past, and can trace it to other gifting ventures such as wassailing in the middle ages connects us to the past, and not just for the Christian folk.

 

[ChristineM]

I'm onboard, as long I can treat it as a secular holiday, and it involves feasting and some grog, I'm ok with it.

We definitely make it secular, no Saturn worship involved. What is involved is daily presents, celebratory meals (you may imbibe whatever) and the king/queen for the day tradition on 23rd.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Nope if you want Sol invictus to only be valid from it becoming an official religion then you should do the same for Christianity.

So if i count from 275 then Christianity didn't start until Constantine made it official in 313.

I supplied ample evidence that Christmas was celebrated on Dec 25 a century before the church made it a universal holy day. You have provided me with zero evidence that Sol Invictus was celebrated before it became a holy day for pagans. I also provided tons of evidence for the REASON for Dec 25 being chosen for Christmas as being nine months after the feast of the annunciation (when J was conceived). There is nothing you can do to somehow make that evidence vanish.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I was actually referring to the festival of Saturnalia. It spanned several days in fact, and the idea xmas couldn't or wasn't influenced by such earlier pagan festivals, that were originally celebrated alongside it, and that it gradually replaced, and have many of the same practices, is hardly evidenced by them not being on the exact same day, that seems of little relevance to me.

"Saturnalia is an ancient Roman festival and holiday in honour of the god Saturn, held on 17 December of the Julian calendar and later expanded with festivities through to 23 December. The holiday was celebrated with a sacrifice at the Temple of Saturn, in the Roman Forum, and a public banquet, followed by private gift-giving, continual partying, and a carnival atmosphere that overturned Roman social norms"

"Saturnalia was the Roman equivalent to the earlier Greek holiday of Kronia, which was celebrated during the Attic month of Hekatombaion in late midsummer. It held theological importance for some Romans, who saw it as a restoration of the ancient Golden Age, when the world was ruled by Saturn."

"The Neoplatonist philosopher Porphyry interpreted the freedom associated with Saturnalia as symbolizing the "freeing of souls into immortality". Saturnalia may have influenced some of the customs associated with later celebrations in western Europe occurring in midwinter, particularly traditions associated with Christmas, the Feast of the Holy Innocents, and Epiphany. In particular, the historical western European Christmas custom of electing a "Lord of Misrule" may have its roots in Saturnalia celebrations."

You are missing the point. Sure, Christians took some of the more superficial trimmings from pagan festivals. But the pagan festivals were centerted on the Solstice. Christmas was not. It is centered on the nativity. Like I said, Solstice is Dec 21, not Dec 25.

 

[metis]

I think some miss the point of what symbolism entails. Let me give an example:

In Judaism, there's the oneg often at the end of the service whereas there's a blessing involving bread and wine. In Catholicism, we also have prayers over the bread and wine for the Eucharist. So, are these both "pagan celebrations"?

My point is that these are what people make them out to be, so what's the problem?

 

[ChristineM]

I supplied ample evidence that Christmas was celebrated on Dec 25 a century before the church made it a universal holy day. You have provided me with zero evidence that Sol Invictus was celebrated before it became a holy day for pagans. I also provided tons of evidence for the REASON for Dec 25 being chosen for Christmas as being nine months after the feast of the annunciation (when J was conceived). There is nothing you can do to somehow make that evidence vanish.

Actually as far as i can see what you have provided is confirmation bias hearsay but you think that is evidence then fair enough, whatever makes you happy


And there is evidence that sol invictus developed in Syria more than 300 years before Christianity was thought of. You want evidence?
Sol Invictus - Wikipedia

The Cult of Sol Invictus

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/242330197_Temples_and_Priests_of_Sol_in_the_City_of_Rome

Just a few, enjoy

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Interesting to see so many people fighting to say that there is no paganism in Christmas. Why?

I've lived in Mexico for over 12 years now, and we are witnessing the Nordic paganization of Christmas. Yesterday was the posada (inn) on my street, in which children reenact Joseph and Mary looking for a place to have the baby. One home is chosen as the manger, and the kids knock on several doors first only to be told to go away. Eventually, they get to the chosen home, they are told yes, and a celebration is had on the street. That's the desert holiday that represents the Christian story of the birth of Jesus:

But during those years, the Nordic pagan influence has seeped in, mostly due to a Wal-Mart opening and selling Christmas trees and Christmas lights. Santa, Frosty, and Rudolph are still rarely seen in my village. You can see a bit more here if interested: Christmas came to Chapala | (semanariolaguna.com) It's beginning to look more like the American Christmas.

Their Easter is still a Christian holiday, with passion plays and reenactments of the crucifixion. Still none of the American pagan infusion of bunnies and eggs.

And here's a nice little story about the Sun dying and revivifying on the third day. I'm sure that this is all just a coincidence, and not a pagan influence on Christmas. From DECEMBER 22 – 25: THE DEATH AND BIRTH OF THE UNCONQUERED SUN | notclif:

The ancients selected December 21, the Winter Solstice as the ideal time to invoke the sun. Maybe if you were living in the north pole and had long, dark harsh winters to deal with you might want to invoke the sun too.

In the solar myth, the death of the “old sun” occurs as the length of daylight decreases and becomes its lowest at the Winter Solstice which begins on the midnight of December 21 (early morning December 22) and ends on Midnight December 24 (early morning December 25). The sun stop moving south on December 22, it is then at its lowest point in the Northern Hemisphere, residing in the vicinity of the Southern Cross. It stays at this lowest point for three days (December 22, 23, 24 appearing to not moving south or north and was considered “dead”

It “returned to life” at midnight on December 24/ early morning December 25, when it begins its northern journey again and the hours of sunlight start to lengthen. Therefore, the ancient said that the SUN was born on December 25. As a result, mistletoes, holly, wreaths, cakes, gifts, greeting cards and feasts were done to honour Sol or Mithra or Saturnalia as the case may be. Interestingly, on December 24, Sirius (star in the east and brightest star in the night sky) aligns with the three brightest Orion belt stars called the Three Kings, (Alnitak, Alnilam and Mintaka) and on December 25, these all point to the location where the sun will rise on earth that day. In essence, the three kings follow the star in the east to find the sunrise (birth of the sun).

DECEMBER 25: BIRTHDAY OF THE SUN OR SON?

As a Baptist, I grew up with the belief that December 25 is the birthdate of Jesus Christ and as such we worship and acknowledge it as Christmas. Indeed, Christmas is big— very big. The entire Island of Jamaica comes to a virtual standstill. Schools and colleges are closed; businesses shut down to give their employees time off; many families plan trips and get-togethers; Church attendance increase; and gifts are given by even those who were scrooge all year long. Maybe you recall, the Christmas Carol that even erroneously say “ Long time ago in Bethlehem, so the Holy Bible said, Mary’s boy child Jesus Christ, was born on Christmas Day” However, recall all these activities were already being done in Rome, Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Egypt to acknowledge and worship the birth day of Sol Invicta (the Unconquered Sun) up to 4000 years before Jesus Christ was born. It then begs the question, whose birthday are we celebrating on December 25? Does Jesus the SON share the birthday with the SUN?

 

[Augustus]

Interesting to see so many people fighting to say that there is no paganism in Christmas. Why?

I've lived in Mexico for over 12 years now, and we are witnessing the Nordic paganization of Christmas. Yesterday was the posada (inn) on my street, in which children reenact Joseph and Mary looking for a place to have the baby. One home is chosen as the manger, and the kids knock on several doors first only to be told to go away. Eventually, they get to the chosen home, they are told yes, and a celebration is had on the street. That's the desert holiday that represents the Christian story of the birth of Jesus:

But during those years, the Nordic pagan influence has seeped in, mostly due to a Wal-Mart opening and selling Christmas trees and Christmas lights. Santa, Frosty, and Rudolph are still rarely seen in my village. You can see a bit more here if interested: Christmas came to Chapala | (semanariolaguna.com) It's beginning to look more like the American Christmas.

Their Easter is still a Christian holiday, with passion plays and reenactments of the crucifixion. Still none of the American pagan infusion of bunnies and eggs.

And here's a nice little story about the Sun dying and revivifying on the third day. I'm sure that this is all just a coincidence, and not a pagan influence on Christmas. From DECEMBER 22 – 25: THE DEATH AND BIRTH OF THE UNCONQUERED SUN | notclif:

The ancients selected December 21, the Winter Solstice as the ideal time to invoke the sun. Maybe if you were living in the north pole and had long, dark harsh winters to deal with you might want to invoke the sun too.

In the solar myth, the death of the “old sun” occurs as the length of daylight decreases and becomes its lowest at the Winter Solstice which begins on the midnight of December 21 (early morning December 22) and ends on Midnight December 24 (early morning December 25). The sun stop moving south on December 22, it is then at its lowest point in the Northern Hemisphere, residing in the vicinity of the Southern Cross. It stays at this lowest point for three days (December 22, 23, 24 appearing to not moving south or north and was considered “dead”

It “returned to life” at midnight on December 24/ early morning December 25, when it begins its northern journey again and the hours of sunlight start to lengthen. Therefore, the ancient said that the SUN was born on December 25. As a result, mistletoes, holly, wreaths, cakes, gifts, greeting cards and feasts were done to honour Sol or Mithra or Saturnalia as the case may be. Interestingly, on December 24, Sirius (star in the east and brightest star in the night sky) aligns with the three brightest Orion belt stars called the Three Kings, (Alnitak, Alnilam and Mintaka) and on December 25, these all point to the location where the sun will rise on earth that day. In essence, the three kings follow the star in the east to find the sunrise (birth of the sun).

DECEMBER 25: BIRTHDAY OF THE SUN OR SON?

As a Baptist, I grew up with the belief that December 25 is the birthdate of Jesus Christ and as such we worship and acknowledge it as Christmas. Indeed, Christmas is big— very big. The entire Island of Jamaica comes to a virtual standstill. Schools and colleges are closed; businesses shut down to give their employees time off; many families plan trips and get-togethers; Church attendance increase; and gifts are given by even those who were scrooge all year long. Maybe you recall, the Christmas Carol that even erroneously say “ Long time ago in Bethlehem, so the Holy Bible said, Mary’s boy child Jesus Christ, was born on Christmas Day” However, recall all these activities were already being done in Rome, Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Egypt to acknowledge and worship the birth day of Sol Invicta (the Unconquered Sun) up to 4000 years before Jesus Christ was born. It then begs the question, whose birthday are we celebrating on December 25? Does Jesus the SON share the birthday with the SUN?

You fell for both the obviously false Horus and Mithras myths?

For someone who claims to value evidence based views and critical thinking that's embarrassing...

 

[Sheldon]

You are missing the point. Sure, Christians took some of the more superficial trimmings from pagan festivals.

Well then I'm not sure what's left to argue about, as that is all I've ever claimed.

 

[Augustus]

You have provided me with zero evidence that Sol Invictus was celebrated before it became a holy day for pagans.

Also, many contemporary scholars reject the idea that "Sol Invictus" even existed and was simply a product of bad, and ideologically biased 19th C history.

It was imply plain old Sol/Helios, the epithet invictus was one applied to many gods rather than a part of his name that differentiated him form Sol.

Among the more popular, but also less credible, claims that have subsequently been associated with HRT is the idea that the transformation of the Dies natalis solis invicti into Christmas was decreed by Constantine the Great as part of his general program of elevating Christianity to the main religion of the Roman empire, while fusing it with his own solar piety. Aside from the lack of source evidence, this thesis completely fails to account for the fact that Constantinople, the city inaugurated by Constantine himself in 330 as the new capital of his empire, had to wait until 380 for the actual introduction.

That studies emphasizing the "pagan" roots of Christmas have been fraught with a certain tendency towards confirmation bias, has recently been argued by Steven Hijmans, whose research into the iconography of the sun in Roman religion has paved the way for a critical re-evaluation of HRT. Using numismatic, archaeological, epigraphic and literary evidence from the second to fourth centuries, Hijmans is able to show that the idea of Christmas being preceded by a popular and important feast dedicated to the sun god is to a considerable extent founded on anachronisms and a view of Roman religion that rests on nineteenth-century constructs rather than hard facts. His skeptical and revisionist conclusions also demolishes the thesis that "Sol Invictus" was a new and distinct deity, whose cult was imported from the East in the third century and became the occasion of a major festival on December 25.

The Origins of the Christmas Date: Some Recent Trends in Historical Research
C. P. E. Nothaft

As I have argued in extenso elsewhere. this synopsis of the history and development of the cult of Sol [as a new, imported Eastern god] in Rome and the Roman Empire is simply untenable in light of the extensive archaeological, iconographic, epigraphic, numismatic, and literary evidence that documents the continuous presence in Rome of the sun-god in some form or another from as far back in history as we can trace Roman religion at all...

Sol was firmly established well before the destruction of Pompeii and remained esentially unchanged in subsequent centuries, likewise in inscriptions Sol occurs regularly through the centuries without any break or hiatus nor with any indication of a radical change in his nature...

It is important to note that in the nineteenth century, when the paradigm of a third-century A.D. oriental origin for Sol Invictus was established this evidence was ignored, not as a result of poor or superficial scholarship but because of a racistly tainted ideological bias against solar cults in general and. in particular against its postulated corollary: ruler worship.21 Both were deemed decadent and therefore incompatible with the Roman psyche making it both convenient and attractive to relegate their origin to the Semitic (and therefore decadent and inferior) Orient. It is this ideological bias which originally produced the paradigm of an oriental origin for Sol Invictus which makes it especially unfortunate that it continues to be repeated uncritically in studies and handbooks today.2

Steven Hijmans, "Sol Invictus, the Winter Solstice, and the Origins of Christmas"


Sol had many feast days at different times, and as you know, none of these were 25 December and he wasn't associated with the solstices

We have no firm evidence for a festival for Sol on December 25th until Julian wrote his hymn to Helios in December of 362. The entry in the calendar of 354 is probably for Sol, although only the epithet invictus is used (above, n. 4), and probably dates to 354, although it was possibly added later. Circumstantial evidence suggests that a festival of Sol on the winter solstice was not yet included in such calendars in the late 320s. As the Christian celebration of Christmas on December 25th can be attested in Rome by AD 336, at which point it may already have been well-established and the celebration of Sol on that day cannot be attested before AD 354/362 and had not yet entered the calendar in the late 320s, it is impossible to postulate that Christmas arose in reaction to some solar festival. There is quite simply not one iota of explicit evidence for a major festival of Sol on December 25th prior to the establishment of Christmas, nor is there any circumstantial evidence that there was likely to have been one. There is only Julian’s overly emphatic insistence that the celebration was as old as Numa… which is a fabrication and his convoluted explanation for the date is impossible.
S Hijmans - Usener’s Christmas: A contribution to the modern construct of late antique solar syncretism

 

[Augustus]

Likely, the "newer" innovations have roots that are continuations from the past. While gift-giving exploded during the Industrial Revolution, it was a thing folks did during Saturnalia and Yule, and that, even to do this day, Christians justify it through St. Nick and the 3 Wise guys shows that the importance of giving gifts during the winter months is extremely important to human communities. That we CAN connect it to other winter celebrations in the past, and can trace it to other gifting ventures such as wassailing in the middle ages connects us to the past, and not just for the Christian folk.

Yes, Christians gave gifts for Christian reasons and "Pagans" gave them for "pagan" reasons.

That humans independently do similar things is not surprising.

True! Except where we are discussing specific customs. Evergreen decorations during a winter celebration certainly can refer to specific customs, and consider the use of particular plants such as mistletoe, important to the Nordics, Druids, and Romans, but as far as I know has no Christian significance.

What else would you use in winter except evergreens? They are all you have.

That people found their own beauty and symbolism is not surprising as it's what humans do. Hence Nordics, Druids, Romans and Christians all found their own symbolism in the most striking winter flora.

It need not be authentically pagan if it contains elements that are clearly non-Christian and can be somewhat traced back to other sources, even if murky. As I previously stated, completely detailed and authentic (as in from the people themselves and not Christian writers) is nearly impossible. But we can surely speculate, and it is worth it to better understand the people as well as our modern folklore and customs.

My view is at some point things become so detached from whatever historical precedent they had that they stop being manifestations of that in any meaningful way.

We could say the Will Ferrel movie Elf is "pagan", because elves existed in the pre-Christian imagination, but I think that is highly contrived. I understand the logic, and can't say it is definitively 'wrong' to view things that way, but it still seems very forced to me.

Also the idea that anything not definitively Christian should automatically be considered "pagan" makes little sense to me. It agains seems contrived to make an emotionally appealing link to a long-lost past that is not really there in any meaningful sense.

It's nice and romantic to think we are really reviving long-lost traditions, but we are really making our own ones for our own reasons.

I doubt we will agree on this, or that either of us will change their minds. It is a subjective evaluation after all.

Thanks for the discussion though, Merry Christmas/Yule/Saturnalia/Brumalia

 

[Yerda]

...John Thomas got eaten by a fish.

I haven't heard anyone call it John Thomas in years.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

I doubt we will agree on this, or that either of us will change their minds. It is a subjective evaluation after all.

Thanks for the discussion though, Merry Christmas/Yule/Saturnalia/Brumalia

Yeah, we are starting to repeat arguments, so I am good with leaving it with this. I feel I adequately expressed my perspective.

I greatly enjoy rousing discussions and debates, so thanks! Happy holidays and seasons greetings!

 

[Bree]

the church's attitude to the pagan saturnalia festival was "if you cant beat em, join em" so they called Saturnalia christmas and joined in the festivities...added Jesus in there to entice the christians and voila!

 

[Sheldon]

Sheldon said: ↑
I doubt we will agree on this, or that either of us will change their minds. It is a subjective evaluation after all.

Thanks for the discussion though, Merry Christmas/Yule/Saturnalia/Brumalia

Yeah, we are starting to repeat arguments, so I am good with leaving it with this. I feel I adequately expressed my perspective.

I greatly enjoy rousing discussions and debates, so thanks! Happy holidays and seasons greetings!

Not sure how, but my name is on the post you've quoted? It's not mine though... If you follow that link it is to my post, which is not that one.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Not sure how, but my name is on the post you've quoted? It's not mine though...

That's...wierd. I will remedy it forthwith!

 

[Sheldon]

That's...wierd. I will remedy it forthwith!

Not to worry, as long as I don't get sued for copyright infringement.