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Is Christmas Pagan?

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Christmas was celebrated on December 25 by SOME churches long long before the day was made universal. And these eearly Dec 25 celebrations PREDATE the holiday of Saturnalia.

No they don't predate saturnalia, saturnalia began to be celebrated some 300 to 400 years before Christmas was even thought of. Saturnalia began to be celebrated around 133bc, Christmas not until the 3rf century ad
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
Based on what evidence?

Surely as a secular humanist you value evidence and reason over myth and prejudice.
Based on JC allegedly being born probably in June ...
"Astronomers have calculated that Christmas should be in June, by charting the appearance of the 'Christmas star' which the Bible says led the three Wise Men to Jesus. They found that a bright star which appeared over Bethlehem 2,000 years ago pinpointed the date of Christ's birth as June 17 rather than December 25."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...4/why-is-christmas-on-dec-25-it-wasnt-always/

... but the pagan countries they converted to Christianity already had a winter festival and it was converted to become
Christmas
 
Based on JC allegedly being born probably in June ...
"Astronomers have calculated that Christmas should be in June, by charting the appearance of the 'Christmas star' which the Bible says led the three Wise Men to Jesus. They found that a bright star which appeared over Bethlehem 2,000 years ago pinpointed the date of Christ's birth as June 17 rather than December 25."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...4/why-is-christmas-on-dec-25-it-wasnt-always/

That has nothing to do with why 2nd C Christians thought it was on 25 December though.

You need to look at the evidence from Early Christians, not modern astronomers to see what Early christians thought.

... but the pagan countries they converted to Christianity already had a winter festival and it was converted to become
Christmas

Given the dating has nothing to do with Europe, which 2nd C North African festival on the 25th Dec were they 'stealing' and why were they 'stealing' it at the same time they were being persecuted for refusing to follow pagan traditions?

It certainly wasn't a replacement for Saturnalia as that was on another date, and both festivals coexisted for a time on different dates.

So what is the evidence?
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
Humanity has expressed celebration and reverence of different seasons and natural phenomena in various cultures, sometimes with traditions bearing varying degrees of resemblance to each other. Eid al-Adha, one of Islam's two main holidays, involves animal sacrifice to Allah--a practice not unlike other sacrificial rituals found in various cultures throughout history.

Does this mean Eid al-Adha is a co-opting of pagan rituals? Of course not: there is no evidence to conclusively suggest such a connection. What it definitely demonstrates, however, is that humans are more similar than we think both throughout history and across different cultures and countries. In my opinion, focusing on how to best coexist and respect each other's rights to have diverse cultures, traditions, and identities is much more important and useful than endlessly debating whether or not one practice "appropriated" another--except in cases where that actually affects anyone's lives or human rights, which is a very rare scenario nowadays.

Excellent answer! It's a disservice to humanity to play culture wars for ownership over a celebration.

I think it's worth pointing out, though, that it is true that Christianity has purposefully mixed pagan traditions with its own for the explicit purpose of conversion. For instance, changing All Saints Day to coincide with Samhain and Pope Gregory having his missionaries build Sukkot huts for their autumnal festivals in order to gradually adapt them into Christian festivals.

Gregorian mission - Wikipedia

So despite my original point, I think it's worth pointing these things out when Christians use phrases like "He's the reason for the season" or "put Christ back in Christmas."

Put the Yule back in Yuletide. ;-)
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
There are some overlaps with older pagan traditions. But Christmas as it is practiced today is Christian.

I would suggest that Christmas is becoming increasingly secular, which means many of the original (and arguably part of universal human celebrations) pagan traditions are becoming more emphasized. Feasting and revelry seems to once again (as it has cyclically) be taking over the more somber, sacred aspects of the holiday.
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
It incorporates some of the superficial trappings of nearby pagan holiday of the past, but none of the substance.

No substance?! Pagan winter celebrations were about enjoying the harvests of the old year while they remained and finding hope in the return of the sun for a new birth in the spring while in the safety and comfort of your community.
 
No substance?! Pagan winter celebrations were about enjoying the harvests of the old year while they remained and finding hope in the return of the sun for a new birth in the spring while in the safety and comfort of your community.

That some "pagans" had winter celebrations doesn't mean that any subsequent winter celebration must be considered "pagan".

All kinds of "pagans" developed winter celebrations independently of each other after all. They weren't simply copying some ur-"paganism".

Basically every time of the year has "pagan" celebrations in it anyway, so whenever it was people could say "it's pagan!".

I would suggest that Christmas is becoming increasingly secular, which means many of the original (and arguably part of universal human celebrations) pagan traditions are becoming more emphasized.

What original "pagan" traditions form part of modern Christmas?

Feasting, drinking and gifts are hardly the preserve of "paganism".
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
I disagree, as the sun has been at its lowest point in December and thus begins it's journey of strengthening at the Solstice, sounds like victory over the Darkness to me?
Hammer, Indo-Aryans divided the year in two parts - Devayana and Pitriyana. Devayana (Path of Gods) extended from Vernal equinox to autumnal equinox, and Pitriyana (Path of the Fathers) from autumnal equinox to vernal equinox.
Later Hindus divided the year into two parts, Uttarayana and Dakshinayana. Uttarayana extends from winter solstice to summer solstice and Dakshinayana from summer solstice to winter solstice.
'Dies Natalis Invicti' is a corrupted rendition of the older system. Hindus adopted the later system because otherwise the rituals would have to be started in a wrong season. The Greeks and later the Romans carried on without caring for seasons.

satra-jpg.13419
 
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Colt

Well-Known Member
Santa Clause Christmas trees elves etc..................................is it Pagan?
Pagan in origins like blood sacrifice, blood drinking, the virgin birth of a savior etc. Paul's version of the gospel and Roman religions married each other. The result is Christianity. Jesus was born in 7 B.C. and it wasn't in December.

The Vatican is built on a former Pagan worship site as are other churches in Rome.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
That has nothing to do with why 2nd C Christians thought it was on 25 December though.

You need to look at the evidence from Early Christians, not modern astronomers to see what Early christians thought.



Given the dating has nothing to do with Europe, which 2nd C North African festival on the 25th Dec were they 'stealing' and why were they 'stealing' it at the same time they were being persecuted for refusing to follow pagan traditions?

It certainly wasn't a replacement for Saturnalia as that was on another date, and both festivals coexisted for a time on different dates.

So what is the evidence?
If you can supply contrary evidence I will review it and may change my opinion.
All you seem to be doing is dissing my reasons which were given in good faith.
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
That some "pagans" had winter celebrations doesn't mean that any subsequent winter celebration must be considered "pagan".

All kinds of "pagans" developed winter celebrations independently of each other after all. They weren't simply copying some ur-"paganism".

Basically every time of the year has "pagan" celebrations in it anyway, so whenever it was people could say "it's pagan!".



What original "pagan" traditions form part of modern Christmas?

Feasting, drinking and gifts are hardly the preserve of "paganism".

I tend to define "pagan" as anything either non-abrahamic or basic to the human condition. For instance, feasting and revelry is something nearly universal. Tree symbolism also appears to be something endemic to humanity, touching something deep in our psychology.

See post #15 for some examples that I suggest likely have pagan roots.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
*some people who don't really care about evidence or critical thinking have speculated.

"Well it woz Constantine wot done it, innit. Just after he invented the Bible and Jesus"
Calm down, I was merely sharing some Dec 25 trivia.
Regardless of actual origins, you're not going to find Jesus kissing Magdalene under the mistletoe in the bible, nor where the apostles strung tinsel around the fir, Pilate receiving coal in his stocking, etc.
 
I tend to define "pagan" as anything either non-abrahamic

Why should non-Christians utilise a specifically Christian formulation to think about non-Christian things though?

It doesn't really make sense for an atheist or a pagan to view the world in such a way, imo..

or basic to the human condition. For instance, feasting and revelry is something nearly universal. Tree symbolism also appears to be something endemic to humanity, touching something deep in our psychology.

If you define it like that then basically everything is pagan: beds, walking, dancing, sport.

Doesn't seem to be a particularly meaningful concept either imo.

Seems much better to treat paganisms separately and give them their individual dues rather than lumping them all into a nondescript mush.

See post #15 for some examples that I suggest likely have pagan roots.

Either they are just stuff humans do or are far too late to be meaningfully "pagan". They don't reflect long held traditions but modern cultural practices that sprung up organically.

Things like elves may have existed in pagan cultures, but modern elves are not really the product of paganism but the 19th C Romantic tradition, folk tales and fantasy literature.
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
Why should non-Christians utilise a specifically Christian formulation to think about non-Christian things though?

It doesn't really make sense for an atheist or a pagan to view the world in such a way, imo..

Because language is dynamic. "Pagan" has come to associate with the things mentioned, both anything non-abrahamic and primitive spiritual and cultural beliefs.

If you define it like that then basically everything is pagan: beds, walking, dancing, sport.

Doesn't seem to be a particularly meaningful concept either imo.

Seems much better to treat paganisms separately and give them their individual dues rather than lumping them all into a nondescript mush.

Mind, we are talking in the context of celebrations. Dancing certainly fits that! And even sport.

Either they are just stuff humans do or are far too late to be meaningfully "pagan". They don't reflect long held traditions but modern cultural practices that sprung up organically.

Things like elves may have existed in pagan cultures, but modern elves are not really the product of paganism but the 19th C Romantic tradition, folk tales and fantasy literature.

And some of that split is through the disruption of Christianity to the traditions. That the Romantics and certain Americans attempting to recreate European traditions they were only vaguely aware of transformed these into something new has been very useful for folks seeking spiritual meaning outside of the Abrahamic religions.
 
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Sheldon

Veteran Member
The dating of Christmas on 25 Dec significantly predates the celebration of Christmas on 25 Dec. It was more theological musing and calculation regrading Easter that led to it.

Saturnalia predates it as a celebration, but was not on 25 Dec and Saturnalia and Christmas continued to be celebrated side by side in the same societies for many years which would be very odd if one was a replacement of the other.

It is true for other claimed origins or Christmas like Dies Natalis Sol Invictus, probably Yule too which both seem to be later. People just assume that "pagan" = ancient because paganism predates Christianity so everything "pagan" must predate Christianity. This is a conceptual problem of labelling everything non-Abrahamic as "pagan" and leads to confused thinking.

"Perhaps that's why pagan traditions remained even as Christianity took hold. The Christmas tree is a 17th-century German invention, University of Bristol's Hutton told LiveScience, but it clearly derives from the pagan practice of bringing greenery indoors to decorate in midwinter. The modern Santa Claus is a direct descendent of England's Father Christmas, who was not originally a gift-giver. However, Father Christmas and his other European variations are modern incarnations of old pagan ideas about spirits who traveled the sky in midwinter, Hutton said."

Ronald Hutton, a historian at Bristol University
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
"Early Christians wanted to convert pagans, Shaw said, but they were also fascinated by their traditions.

Christians of that period are quite interested in paganism," he said. "It's obviously something they think is a bad thing, but it's also something they think is worth remembering. It's what their ancestors did." Perhaps that's why pagan traditions remained even as Christianity took hold. "


Ronald Hutton, a historian at Bristol University
 
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