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Featured Is Christmas Pagan?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Riders, Dec 2, 2018.

  1. Wild Fox

    Wild Fox Well-Known Member

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    Made a calculation mistake. I apologize but went off of memory instead of rechecking what I had learned sorry. What I had read was the conception and death of Jesus was to be on the same day near the spring equinox which if the you go 9 months later you get the December 25th date. February 2nd was the 40 days after the birth for purification of Mary. Still ironically similarity to important pre-Christian dates but wanted to correct what I had presented.
     
  2. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    One person called it ' Happy Yulietide '.
    A friend's friend at Columbia U. was ( and I suppose still is ) an atheist.
    So, the X-mass tree was decorated but No connection to Jesus. Definitely connected to presents under the tree.
     
  3. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find it is always good to do research.
    Since 33 1/2 year old Jesus was put to death in the month of Nisan 14th day in the Passover Spring, then Jesus, 6 months later, would have turned 34 in the Fall or Autumn of the year.
     
  4. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    To me, it is important 'within the ranks' what any symbol would stand for within Scripture.
    That is what was important to Jesus. It was Jesus' choice what to believe and say.
    Jesus choose the symbols of ' bread and wine ' to represent his day of death as a RED-letter day for Christians.
    Bread and wine were the only symbols that Jesus chose to be remembered by - Luke 22:19.
     
  5. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I can't find that the choice is whether the tree is liked or Not liked.
    The choice is whether the tree is a symbol of 1st-century Christianity or not.
    One's feeling are Not part of the picture, but Scripture is.
     
  6. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    My Uncle thought because the world war soldiers brought Christmas to Japan the Japanese would convert.
    Liking or celebrating Christmas does Not make a convert.
    Also, scripturally speaking, it is Peace on Earth toward men of goodwill. KJV changed it to goodwill to men.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  7. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    That's your choice of course, but let me just ask you do you have a cross in your church or/and home? Think about this is terms of where it came from originally versus what it stands for today.

    Symbolism is heavily used within both Jewish and Christian circles both during biblical times and also today, so the litmus test as far as I'm concerned is what does it stand for today.
     
  8. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    See above.

    Also, Christianity is not nor ever has been a static entity, and one can even see adjustments of various types in Acts and the epistles. Jesus even mentioned as such whereas he said that the Church would be guided until the end of time, thus implying that there will be changes.
     
  9. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe it is not. It is about celebrating the birth of Jesus.
     
  10. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe it existed because people didn't know any better.

    I believe Christianity is already what it needs to be at the beginning.

    I believe it should have been the duty of church leaders to discourage pagan traditions. Perhaps it didn't hurt to co-opt them by giving them Christian meanings.
     
  11. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe I can thank you for that. My Latin isn't all that great but I think I got the gist of it. The
    Alleluia
    was great.
     
  12. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    What somethings stand for today does Not necessarily change its original function.
    I find Scripture is clear about the use of sited images, so, No the cross is Not Christian.
    Christians walk by faith, Not by sight (sighted things) as per 2 Corinthians 5:7.
    Especially around the time of Constantine the non-Christians wore the Tau.
    By lowering the top T cross beam, then the Tau became the cross thus allowing the non-Christians to keep their Tau.
    1st-century Christian teachings are the only genuine Christianity. There was No cross hung, worn or used.
    And who would make a miniature of a gun used to murder a loved one and hang it around one's neck or wall _____
    So, why would a murder weapon that killed Jesus be placed in a cherished position of honor ______
     
  13. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Not only duty to discourage it, but to avoid non-Christian traditions as Jesus said at Matthew 15:9, and because as Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30 says false shepherds (church leaders) would lead people away from biblical truth.
    Just as the religious leaders were corrupt in Jesus day according to the 23rd chapter of Matthew, then it should be No surprise to find that also true today.
     
  14. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    To me an ' adjustment ' is Not a change of belief. It's Not interjecting something non-biblical with the biblical.
    We 'adjust in understanding' about Scripture and Not change or add to Scripture.
    For example: we now know more than Daniel knew at Daniel 12:4; Daniel 12:9.
    A comprehensive concordance today allows us to search or research the Bible by topic or subject arrangement.
    Thus, by taking one topic or one subject at a time we have a clearer picture of 1st-century Christianity.
    So, just at Proverbs 4:18 lets us know spiritual light (Scripture) would grow brighter with the passing of time.
    So, as we advance closer to Jesus' millennium-long perfect day of governing over Earth scriptural understanding also grows. Even now Jesus is guiding the Christian congregation until the ' end of time ' meaning the end the time of wickedness on Earth because the wicked will be destroyed forever as per Psalms 92:7. Those ruining the Earth will be brought to ruin as per Revelation 11:18 B.
    Who ' remains ' are the figurative humble meek/ sheep to inherit the Earth - Psalms 37:9-11; Proverbs 2:21-22.
    We are nearing Jesus' glory time of Matthew 25:31-33,37,40 when Jesus will separate the figurative 'sheep' before the executional words from Jesus' mouth rids the Earth of the 'goats' - Revelation 19:14-16; Isaiah 11:3-4.
    Then, mankind will see the return of the Genesis ' Tree of Life ' on Earth for the ' healing of earth's nations ' according to Revelation 22:2. That is why we are all invited to pray the invitation of Rev. 22:20 for Jesus to come !
    Not come and bring the end of time, but the end of time for wickedness on Earth.

    As far as Acts yes there were adjustments because the temporary Constitution of the Mosiac law ended and people needed to adjust to Not keeping that temporary law for ancient Israel.
    There is a warning found at Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30 to beware that false clergy would come.
     
  15. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Paganism existed after the Flood of Noah's day with Noah's great grandson Nimrod.
    Nimrod build an ungodly tower of Babel.
    As the people migrated away from ancient Babylon they took with them their 'paganism' so to speak.
    They spread their non-biblical religious ideas and practices world wide into a greater religious Babylon or Babylon the Great. That is why today we see so many similar or overlapping religious ideas mixed throughout the Earth .
    Jesus warned against traditions of men ( un-scriptural traditions ) at Matthew 15:9.
     
  16. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    IYO, which also goes against what Jesus said about guiding his Church and also against the simple fact that even the NT shows the Church evolving. So, even the first century Church wasn't static by any stretch of the imagination.

    Because it came to mean something positive as the belief was and is that Jesus died to save people from sin.

    The Church was certainly not "pure" in the first century or afterward as there were issues that they had to deal with, so your assertion that somehow the first century Church was "genuine Christianity" is really quite absurd because it ignores what Jesus said and also what the apostles did, namely to select their successors and make some changes.

    Also, just a reminder that it was the 4th century Church that chose the canon as it certainly didn't choose itself, nor did the apostles choose it.

    Anyhow, in closing my participation in this discussion with you, the early Church was certainly not "pure", and any serious reading of Acts and the epistles makes that quite clear as they tried to deal with issues as these issues emerged, and the Church continues that process today.

    Take care.
     
  17. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Oops, I missed this.

    To the above, yes, and these were called "heresies", and they even existed during Jesus' time. The mark of the true Church was not which Bible you used but whether your leaders were appointed by other leaders that can be traced back to the apostles through the laying on of hands. There are several churches that can make that claim: Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, Moravian, and some Scandinavian Lutheran churches.
     
  18. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Since the many ancient manuscripts already choose Bible canon, then how could the 4th century choose canon.
    So, right, Bible canon was Not chosen by the apostles. Bible canon existed by the end of the 1st century.
    What was completed by the end of the 1st century was considered as the authoritative Word of God.
    Thus, Bible canon was established early on the stage.
    The apocryphal books simply exclude themselves being out of harmony with the ' 66' books of Bible canon .
    So, I suppose the 4th century people, who did Not establish or choose, but they simply or merely testified to what was already established or accepted as the inspired Word of God - 2 Timothy 3:16-17.
     
  19. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    There were roughly 1000 N.T. and roughly 2000 OT "books" to choose from according to Anglican scholar William Barclay, so the idea that it was somehow magically chosen in the first century Church simply is not true. Nor was it considered the "authoritative word of God" since it hadn't yet been chosen, plus the Jewish canon had not yet been selected beyond the first five books of Torah. And the 2 Timothy citation is not a reference to the NT but is a reference to Torah.

    Here is some things about the process but I have to leave until tomorrow: Development of the Christian biblical canon - Wikipedia
     
  20. kjw47

    kjw47 Well-Known Member

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    God never had more than a single religion. He is not with the other religions. Satan owns those religions( 2Cor 11:12-15) Not all is as appears in this world.
     
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