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Featured Is Christmas Pagan?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Riders, Dec 2, 2018.

  1. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    That makes me wonder why Jesus nor his apostles never celebrated birthdays.
    I can't picture Jesus or any apostles dressed up in a Santa suit costume and telling lies to innocent children.
    Also, it seems Jesus made it clear on how he wanted to be remembered at Luke 22:19.
    Christians are to remember or mark the red-letter 'day of Jesus' death' as a remembrance of loving him.
     
  2. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Pagan just dressed up with Christian names or labels.
    I find the modern version is just a form of religious syncretism.
    In Scripture the clue of its roots traces back to its base with Nimrod in ancient Babylon.
    As the people migrated away from ancient Babylon they took with them their non-biblical roots.
    They spread their un-biblical ideas and practices into a greater religious Babylon or Babylon the Great.
    That is why we see so many similar or overlapping practices throughout the world today.
    Those customs and ideas are Now so deeply embedded in people's minds that they are hard to erase.
     
  3. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein ᛘᛁᛏᚾᛁᚴᚼᛏ᛫ᛋᚢᚾ
    Premium Member It's My Birthday!

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    My point is that Santa is myth and legend just like those Bible stories are myth and legend.
     
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  4. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    The scriptures don't say one way or another whether Jesus or the apostles celebrated birthdays, so you don't know for a fact they never did.
    I didn't say anything about dressing up as Santa Claus or mention Santa Claus at all. I referred to celebrating JESUS.
    I think Christians of all people should rejoice and celebrate the birth of Christ, His life, death, and resurrection which all make possible forgiveness of sins and eternal life. Jesus is victorious over all sin, all the earth, and certainly all things pagan.
     
  5. dianaiad

    dianaiad Well-Known Member

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    You are quite right. EVERY SINGLE TRADITION WE HAVE that belongs to Christmas, including the date, is of pagan origin. I once had a really fun time tracking down the 'provenance' of all the Christmas traditions we all use, and there isn't a single one that is purely 'Christian' in origin....except the reason we celebrate it.

    My own opinion?

    So what? How fun is that? Of course, for ME it means that I get to celebrate Christmas twice; once in December with everybody else, with all the carols and the tinsel and gifts and Santa and the reindeer and all.....and then again, more quietly and reverently, at a time that is far more likely to have been His actual birth date. Works for me.....

    And yes, I taught my kids that Santa and the elves were real, and when the time was right and it looked as if suspicions were catching up, I taught them that Santa was absolutely real...until we grow up and BECOME Santa ourselves. All five of my kids grabbed onto that idea with great verve. The only kid who was disappointed was my youngest, because of course she didn't have a younger sibling to 'be Santa' for. She was supremely unhappy until we showed her the giving tree in the church hallway, with the names of children who needed a little extra help for Christmas, widows, older couples, singles...people who didn't have families. She found the name of a child a year younger than her, and got to be Santa.

    All was well.

    but then, we also taught them that everything about the December Christmas was a joyous celebration of jesus' birth, and everything about it is 'stories with a purpose,' or 'fiction with truth..." because Jesus wasn't actually BORN on December 25th. So...for that time we can all believe in Santa, and Rudolf, and elves, and the wise men, and every wonderful, fun and joyful thing in the world.

    Then, around about April, we have a far more quiet, reverent and respectful celebration...very low key, and very NOT 'pagan.'

    (shrug) but I don't have a problem with 'pagan.'

    Look at the dictionary definition:

    pa·gan
    /ˈpāɡən/
    noun
    noun: pagan; plural noun: pagans
    1.
    a person holding religious beliefs other than those of the main world religions.


    To me, then, 'pagan' is a word that means about the same thing 'cult' does:

    "your beliefs are weird and I don't like you." It's used as a pejorative, and really doesn't mean anything at all concrete, except....you don't believe the same things I do.

    So....I'll decorate the tree (Roman)
    Hang the mistletoe, wish I could have a yule log (celtic)
    give gifts (again, Roman)
    and all the other things, and love them even more BECAUSE Christianity adopted them from 'pagan' roots.

    Why not?

    A symbol means what the user says it does.
     
  6. james dixon

    james dixon Well-Known Member
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    I looked up the word “pagan” just to familiarize myself with its meaning before posting on your thread. This is what I found~~~

    pa·gan

    /ˈpāɡən/

    Noun: a person holding religious beliefs other than those of the main world religions.

    If you take the meaning of “pagan” based on the above definition doesn’t Judaism fall into that category-? You are born “Jewish” and the Jewish religion is Judaism.

    Judaism (originally from Hebrew יהודה, Yehudah, "Judah"; via Latin and Greek) is the religion of the Jewish people. ... It encompasses the religion, philosophy, and culture of the Jewish people. Judaism is considered by religious Jews to be the expression of the covenant that God established with the Children of Israel.

    Therefore, aren’t followers of Judaism Pagans?

    Just asking

    No animosity intended or implied

    :)-
     
  7. james dixon

    james dixon Well-Known Member
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    To your question; Is Christmas Pagan?

    The answer is no. Different people of different nationalities and origin can all be Christians; therefore, Christians are not pagans. End of story; from my point of view :)-
     
  8. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

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    For the person who posted not liking the Bah'ai bec

    I have been told no because any religion outside of Worlds religions means POlytheistic, not monotheistic more then one God.
     
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  9. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    That the Feast of the Nativity was placed near solstice is coincidental. It was originally proposed that Dec 25 was Jesus actual birthday (others said, if I remember correctly, Jan 8 -- later Jan 8 became Epiphany).

    Jews consider Jesus irrelevant. We don't really care what day he was born on. To us, worshiping a man is itself idolatry. Other than that, I think it is silly to call Christmas a pagan holiday when it very clearly is a Christian one. Any once upon a time pagan traditions that the church converted into Christianity are simply Christian now and no longer pagan. Gentile religions do not have the same strictness about avoiding even the trappings of paganism that Judaism shoulders. I have no problems with them having holly wreaths and Christmas trees. IMHO the yearly rant by some fundamentalists that Christmas is pagan is just a few people being kill joys. The same people usually insist that everyone keep the Jewish holy days, which is just nonsense.
     
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  10. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member
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    I view all religions as mythology, so I don’t care that they mix and match stuff for holidays. Still fun with friends and family. I do wish they would bring back the maypole, tho. More fun than the Easter bunny.
     
    #70 Milton Platt, Dec 3, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2018
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  11. John53

    John53 Active Member

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    Not in Australia, we celebrate by trying to eat a massive meal in 45c heat and not passing out.
     
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  12. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find historians say those Jews did Not celebrate birthdays.
    That was because the person was center of attention and Not God on that day.
    John C. McCollister's book 'The Christian Book of Why ' wrote 1st-century Christians did Not celebrate the birth of Jesus for the same reason they did Not do it for others because birthdays was the custom of pagans.
    That is why Strong's Cyclopaedia said Jews regarded birthday celebrations as part of idolatrous worship.
    Historian Augustus Neander wrote the notion of a birthday festival was far from the minds of those Christians.
    Origen wrote that 'in Scripture No one is recorded to have kept a... birthday.....'
    I think more information can be found in the book " The Lore of Birthdays "
    I find it was Jesus' death and resurrection, not birth, which makes possible forgiveness and eternal life possible.
    There is No memorial mentioned about Jesus birth, rather Jesus did inaugurate a binding memorial of this death as found at 1 Corinthians 11:23-26. Christ's faithful death, Not his birth, is what is really God's gift to us.
    If Jesus would have Not endured to the end, then forgiveness and eternal life would Not be possible by Jesus.
    Jesus even instructed his followers to 'endure to the end' if one wants salvation at Matthew 24:13.
    'Victorious over all things pagan' to me does Not mean to adopt pagan things as being Christian.
    No mixing according to 2 Corinthians 6:14-16.
    So, Christian names or labels on a holiday does Not make it acquire harmony with Christ's teachings or life style.
    Support for the biblical is just Not found in other belief systems.
     
  13. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    However, for Christians it is biblically wrong to mix and match as per 2 Corinthians 6:14-17.
    So, Christians are supposed to care if there is a mixing or blending with the non-biblical.
     
  14. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I can agree that people of different backgrounds can become Christian, and once choosing Christianity they are No longer pagan in belief or practice. In other words, once becoming a Christian then non-biblical ways are forsaken.
     
  15. Wild Fox

    Wild Fox Well-Known Member

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    My question is how did the know what day was Jesus's birthday. Why did they pick December 25? I do not know of any information that was available now or then that would identify this day or even this season. The Roman Catholic church was well aware of the importance of ritual to those they were converting and made intentional changes to the festivals and rituals turning things such as votive offerings from their origin into Christian votive offerings. It is just that it was fascinatingly convenient to choose a date so close to the winter solstice with the coming of the sun to return with the coming of Jesus. I do not have proof but it is very likely that Imbolic celebrated by the Irish had similar celebrations in other groups of Celtic people with a different name whom they were trying to convert when Christmas became a celebration and conveniently coincided with the conception time for Mary with Jesus. Could be by chance but the Roman Catholic Church was very careful in what they did. I certainly cannot prove this but think it is an interesting choice.
     
  16. kjw47

    kjw47 Well-Known Member

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    Paganism existed by satans will. Anything from it is off the table of demons( 1Cor 10:21) God says one cannot partake of that table--99% are mislead to. Satan beat those centuries ago with pagan additives in world celebrations.
    I believe santa is satan. He steals 98% of Christmas celebration away from Jesus. He even comes first on dec 25th.
    Not all is as appears in a satan ruled system( 2Cor 11:12-15)
     
  17. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member
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    It all depeds upon wo you ask, apparently.
     
  18. Wild Fox

    Wild Fox Well-Known Member

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    The pagans, who were anyone other than Christian, had nothing to do with satan - that was a Christian invention often used to persecute people.
     
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  19. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    I'll be real honest with you. In as much as I enjoy studying other religions, I'm just not into THAT much detail. I know that I read that originally December 25 was a date that some believed was the actual birthdate of Jesus (that and January 8). But I don't remember why. I bet if you took a half hour to do some serious googling you'd find your answer.

    Do I think it's possible to determine Jesus' real birthday? No. Nor do I think it matters (not to me, nor to Christians). It's quite enough to set aside a day to remember his birth.

    Did the Catholic church deliberately misappropriate pagan customs to make it easier for pagans to feel at home in Christianity? I don't know. All the "evidence" is circumstantial. I think that FOR CERTAIN December 25 was NOT chosen for its closeness to solstice. Not in the slightest. It's shear coincidence. Could you perhaps find someone that used that coincidence to make an analogy? I wouldn't be at all surprised. It doesn't prove the deliberate placement.
     
  20. England my lionheart

    England my lionheart Rockerjahili Rebel
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    Imo Christianity adopted pagan festivals to get people to convert,churches near pagan sites too eased the transition .
     
    #80 England my lionheart, Dec 5, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2018
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