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Featured If Jesus returned to this world, how would you know it was Jesus?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Trailblazer, Jun 6, 2021.

  1. Truthseeker9

    Truthseeker9 Active Member

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    I don't know of any in the Gospels. But I think the period of time is shorter, at least that's what I understand. There's so little we actually know about whether the traditional account that this Gospel was written by Mark or not, a companion of Peter. In the Gospel itself, it does not say it was written by Mark. Later it was called the Gospel of Mark, I think in the 2nd century. There are all sorts of opinions about this. This is also true among Baha'i scholars. I'll quote from Wikipedia, which is what I trust this as a neutral source:

    The Gospel of Mark is anonymous.[10] Its composition is usually dated through the eschatological discourse in Mark 13: most scholars interpret this as pointing to the First Jewish–Roman War (66–74 AD) that would lead to the destruction of the Second Temple in AD 70, with the composition of Mark taking place either immediately after the destruction (the majority position) or during the years immediately prior.[11] Earlier dates in the range AD 35–45 are sometimes proposed,[12] but are usually dismissed.[13]

    It was written in Greek, for a gentile audience, and probably in Rome, although Galilee, Antioch (third-largest city in the Roman Empire, located in northern Syria), and southern Syria have also been suggested.[14][15] Early Christian tradition, first attested by Papias of Hierapolis (c. 60– c.130 AD), attributes it to the John Mark mentioned in Acts, but scholars generally reject this as an attempt to link the gospel to an authoritative figure.

    To me at least it seems that these majority of scholars don't believe in prophecy when they date the time of Mark this way. I believe in prophecy myself. So I don't have any idea when Mark was written. I also think scholars are being are being overly cynical when they reject Mark as being the author outright. I think scholars are overly critical in general, but I trust them more than Christian understandings of such things. Unfortunately there is polarization of views I believe started by Christians originally being too uncritical. This is similar to the conflict between science and Christianity.

    Yes, I understand there is a chain of transmission of people who narrated these Hadith. But it is not as reliable as the Qur'an, I think you'll agree. Baha'is consider the Qur'an to be the first scripture to be reliable.
     
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  2. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    That prophecy is obviously metaphorical because every eye could not see him all at once if he came in the clouds in the sky.

    But you still have not answered my question: If Jesus returned how would you know it was Jesus? Would you believe it was Jesus just because he came down from the clouds, like a miracle? It is just as possible that anyone coming to earth that way would be an alien posing as Jesus. ;)
    I think the verse means that when Christ returns peoples' judgment will be clouded so they will not recognize him when he appears on earth, and for a long time afterwards, but eventually every eye will see Baha'u'llah in the sense that the veils will be lifted and everyone will know who he is and when he came. Baha'is have assurance that will come to pass eventually through what Baha'u'llah wrote:

    “Warn and acquaint the people, O Servant, with the things We have sent down unto Thee, and let the fear of no one dismay Thee, and be Thou not of them that waver. The day is approaching when God will have exalted His Cause and magnified His testimony in the eyes of all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth. Place, in all circumstances, Thy whole trust in Thy Lord, and fix Thy gaze upon Him, and turn away from all them that repudiate His truth. Let God, Thy Lord, be Thy sufficing succorer and helper. We have pledged Ourselves to secure Thy triumph upon earth and to exalt Our Cause above all men, though no king be found who would turn his face towards Thee.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 248-249
     
    #222 Trailblazer, Jun 8, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2021
  3. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    No, they won't be killed, they just won't have eternal life so they will be "as dead" although their souls will still continue to exist in the spiritual world.

    “O My servants! Whoso hath tasted of this Fountain hath attained unto everlasting Life, and whoso hath refused to drink therefrom is even as the dead.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p.169

    “No man can obtain everlasting life, unless he embraceth the truth of this inestimable, this wondrous, and sublime Revelation.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 183

    Baha'u'llah simply reiterated what Jesus said about eternal life in His Day.

    John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

    1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
     
  4. soulsurvivor

    soulsurvivor Active Member
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    Anyone with a TV or a smart phone will be able to see him live. Others will see him subsequently. The clouds may be metaphorical, but seeing him physically is literal.

    I already told you how I would recognize him - his consistent message of love/compassion and forgiveness and his ability to perform worldwide miracles. And he will be visible to everyone who had a access to a TV or smartphone (or knew someone who did). If an alien can do all that, then he is as good as Jesus.

    Bahaullah was not seen worldwide or even performed any miracles that millions could see.

    Of course the Returned Jesus (or similar alien) will not marry three wives!
     
    #224 soulsurvivor, Jun 8, 2021
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  5. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Strange that you have not read the Bible but could provide expert commentary day in, day out.

    Yet, I of course agree context is important. Please search for the so called "parable of ten minas".
     
  6. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Thanks. I believe that those descriptions are metaphorical, but we all have our different beliefs. :)
    I have no idea what it will be like but I guess we will all find out when we get there!

    Oh, I just remembered a couple of quotes. I do not really understand what they mean but they are food for thought.

    “The spiritual world is like unto the phenomenal world. They are the exact counterpart of each other. Whatever objects appear in this world of existence are the outer pictures of the world of heaven.” The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 10

    “Your questions, however, can be answered only briefly, since there is no time for a detailed reply. The answer to the first question: the souls of the children of the Kingdom, after their separation from the body, ascend unto the realm of everlasting life. But if ye ask as to the place, know ye that the world of existence is a single world, although its stations are various and distinct.”
    Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 193
     
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  7. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    I was only giving you the Muslim position since that was your question.

    None of the Gospels have an authorship. All Gospels are anonymous. No one knows the provenance. There is no chain of narrations whatsoever. Nothing goes back to Jesus.

    Also, dating the Gospels have a lot into it. It is not like the Christian scholars are not Christian, they are still Christian. So they dont have a personal agenda against the New Testament to date it that way. It is not only about not taking prophecy, but also things mentioned in non-prophetic way. Also the common source theories that followed the synoptic problem should be considered. Paul himself was writing around 20 to 22 years after Jesus passed, and all the Gospels were written afterwards.

    I am not saying you must take any ahadith blindly, but they have chains back to the prophet, and as I said, they have a science of Mathn and Isnad. Well, at least they have something. The New Testament documents are not considered to be "of Jesus". No scholar thinks so.

    Peace.
     
  8. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Anyone could have a consistent message of love/compassion and forgiveness and an alien could perform worldwide miracles. It would not necessarily be Jesus. But I guess you do not care if it is Jesus, all you care about are the miracles.
    So what? Nobody cares about miracles, they solve none of the world's problems. Miracles are not going to help anyone build the kingdom of God on earth, which is why Christ was returning. Jesus said that he only performed miracles because people had weak faith.

    John 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

    But all that is moot because Jesus is not going to be coming back and performing any miracles. Do you read your Bible? if you do you would know that Jesus is not ever coming back to this world.

    John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

    John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
     
  9. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    "The enemies who rejected the king in the parable are representative of the Jewish nation that rejected Christ while He walked on earth—and everyone who still denies Him today. When Jesus returns to establish His kingdom, one of the first things He will do is utterly defeat His enemies (Revelation 19:11–15). It does not pay to fight against the King of kings."

    What is the meaning of the Parable of the Ten Minas? | GotQuestions.org


    When Jesus returns to establish His kingdom he will utterly defeat His enemies, lol.

    John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

    John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

    These two verses in John 18 completely negate that Jesus is the King of this world or that Jesus will ever come to this world to rule it, and they fit perfectly together with John 17:4 and John 17:11. Jesus came into this world to bear witness unto the truth about God. He did that so there is no more reason for Jesus to come back to this world again. That is why Jesus said “I am no more in the world.”
     
  10. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Thats false because this is eschatology.

    You should read up on the synoptic problem and the Johannine evolution.

    Invalid argument from Christian apologetic you cut and paste for convenience cherry picking what is good for your apologetics as if you believe everything Christians say.
     
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  11. soulsurvivor

    soulsurvivor Active Member
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    The miracles should of course be good/useful ones (like healing everyone in the world of Covid), together with the message of unconditional love, seen by all - these three are enough to convince me of the divinity of the person (whoever it is) - that would be the real Second Coming.

    Bahaullah has seen or known by hardly anyone. Also the Christ would definitely not marry three wives, not even a single one!
     
  12. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    That is just the Second Coming you want to see, but a not so small detail is that is not what the return of Christ/Messiah was supposed to do according to the Old or New Testaments.
    Regarding Baha'u'llah being seen or known by only a few, it was the same for Jesus when He first appeared and for a long time after that.

    “Just how small was the Christian movement in the first century is clear from the calculations of the sociologist R Stark (1996:5-7; so too Hopkins 1998:192-193).Stark begins his analysis with a rough estimation of six million Christians in the Roman Empire (or about ten percent of the total population) at the start of the fourth century... There were 1,000 Christians in the year 40, 1,400 Christians in 50, 1,960 Christians in 60, 2,744 Christians in 70, 3,842 Christians in 80, 5,378 Christians in 90 and 7,530 Christians at the end of the first century.

    These figures are very suggestive, and reinforce the point that in its initial decades the Christian movement represented a tiny fraction of the ancient world.”
    How many Jews became Christians in the first century?

    But it did not matter that only a few recognized Jesus when He first came because what the first disciples had seen the world realized later..... Now we can see the same exact pattern repeat itself with Baha'u'llah and that is how we know that He was a true Messenger of God, just like Jesus.

    “When Christ appeared He manifested Himself at Jerusalem. He called men to the Kingdom of God, He invited them to Eternal Life and He told them to acquire human perfections. The Light of Guidance was shed forth by that radiant Star, and He at length gave His life in sacrifice for humanity.

    All through His blessed life He suffered oppression and hardship, and in spite of all this humanity was His enemy!

    They denied Him, scorned Him, ill-treated Him and cursed Him. He was not treated like a man—and yet in spite of all this He was the embodiment of pity and of supreme goodness and love.

    He loved all humanity, but they treated Him as an enemy and were incapable of appreciating Him. They set no value on His words and were not illumined by the flame of His love.

    Later they realized who He was; that He was the Sacred and Divine Light, and that His words held Eternal Life.

    His heart was full of love for all the world, His goodness was destined to reach each one—and as they began to realize these things, they repented—but He had been crucified!

    It was not until many years after His ascension that they knew who He was, and at the time of His ascension He had only a very few disciples; only a comparatively small following believed His precepts and followed His laws. The ignorant said, ‘Who is this individual; He has only a few disciples!’ But those who knew said: ‘He is the Sun who will shine in the East and in the West, He is the Manifestation who shall give life to the world’.

    What the first disciples had seen the world realized later.” Paris Talks, pp. 116-117


    WE MUST NOT BE DISCOURAGED BY THE SMALLNESS OF OUR NUMBERS

    Of course Jesus would not have three wives, He was not born into a Muslim culture and religion. :rolleyes:
     
  13. The_Fisher_King

    The_Fisher_King Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
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    I find at least some of the physical descriptions of Paradise in the Qur'an to be so specific in their physical detail that they are best taken literally. e.g. 18:31; 35:33; 88:10-16.
     
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  14. soulsurvivor

    soulsurvivor Active Member
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    You are confusing the first coming with the Second Coming.

    In the first coming hardly anyone knew him.

    In the Second one, every eye shall see. There will be no 'later' realization, they will recognize him immediately (except some may think he is an alien or something like that) because he will come in his full glory and demonstrate his powers for everyone to see.

    Three wives and women not equal to men! Unbelievable!
     
  15. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I looked up those verses and they do sound literal. When Abdu’l-Baha said this…..

    “The spiritual world is like unto the phenomenal world. They are the exact counterpart of each other. Whatever objects appear in this world of existence are the outer pictures of the world of heaven.” The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 10

    …. that could mean that in the spiritual world (Paradise) we will see what we see here only it won’t be physical. I mean it won’t be comprised of physical matter; it will be made up of spiritual elements that exist in the spiritual realm of existence. I think that because Abdu’l-Baha also wrote….

    “The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194

    Baha’u’llah also wrote something about how different that world will be and the form our soul will take in the spiritual world.

    “The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 157

    Does the Qur’an say anything about the form our soul will take on in the afterlife?

    Do you believe that Paradise of only for believers?

    Regarding those verses you cited, it is interesting to note that this little book depicts similar nature scenes, and you might enjoy reading it. It is not very long and you can read it for free online:

    Private Dowding by Wellesley Tudor Pole
     
  16. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    You are free to believe whatever you want to as we all are, but you have nothing biblical to base those beliefs upon, you only believe that because that is what you want to happen. The one I believe came in His full glory and power was Baha'u'llah. He also did miracles, healed the sick and raised the dead, but He did not want anyone to believe in Him because of them so He only told a few of His disciples.

    Imagine that, basing one's entire belief about the return of Christ upon one verse that you "believe" you have interpreted correctly. ;)

    Rev 1:7 Behold, He cometh with clouds, and every eye shall see Him, and they also who pierced Him; and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so. Amen.

    Unless Jesus lied or the Bible is in error, the same Jesus is NEVER coming back to this world becaue He finished the work God gave Him to do...

    John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

    John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

    John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

    ... and if these Bible verses are incorrect, we cannot trust Rev 1:7 or any other Bible verses to be correct.
    So why do Christians believe that Jesus is going to return when Jesus clearly stated He was no more in this world?
     
  17. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    They will not see Him thill they are raised from the dead. Then they will see Him.
     
  18. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
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    These verses clearly show the coming of the Son of Man and return of Christ are one and the same.'If someone says Christ is here or there, don't believe it. If they say Christ is in the desert, don't go; if they say Christ is in the secret chambers, don't enter. When the Son of Man (you're arguing that Jesus mid statement drops the subject of the return of Christ and jumps to a completely unrelated topic that just happens to also be a person who is supernaturally coming to Earth) comes He will be visible to all.'

    The Son of Man coming is glory and power is directly contrasted to the false Christs who people have to point out or direct you to. When Christ comes back truly, no one will have to point Him out, we are commanded by Christ to reject any other claim.

    When Jesus commanded his followers not to believe that Christ was here or there, in the desert or the secret rooms.

    If a man comes claiming to be Christ returned there is no question of believing that man. He is a liar.
     
    #238 Mister Emu, Jun 9, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2021
  19. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    No you are not commanded by Christ to reject any other claim. You just twist the meaning of the verses so you can believe that, but that is not what Jesus said.

    Matthew 24 KJV

    3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
    4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

    5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

    Jesus said that because Jesus knew there would be many men who would come claiming to be Christ.
    List of people claimed to be Jesus - Wikipedia

    Please note that Jesus never answered His disciples saying what would be the sign of His coming because Jesus was never planning to return to earth. That is why Jesus said:

    John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

    John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

    John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
    We know that Jesus was not referring to Baha’u’llah when Jesus said "many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many" because Baha’u’llah did not claim to be Jesus Christ. Baha’u’llah claimed to be a different Person and Baha’u’llah came with a new name, just as the Bible prophesied.

    Isaiah 62:2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lord shall name.

    Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

    Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

    The new name indicates that the return of Christ would be another man because why would Jesus change his name if he wanted people to know he was Jesus? That would make no sense at all.

    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
    Did anyone ever wonder why Jesus did not say “And then shall they see me coming in the clouds with great power and glory?” Jesus always referred to the Son of man in the third person.

    Look carefully at Mark 8:38. Look at how the verse is separated by a semicolon and Jesus says “also” indicating that the Son of man is someone other than Himself who would come in the glory of his Father with the holy angels

    Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

    of him also MEANS THERE ARE TWO MEN INVOLVED.


    Again, in Matthew 16:27, Jesus said that the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father. Jesus did not say “I will come in the glory of my Father.”

    Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

    Look carefully at Luke 9:26. Look at how Jesus separated Himself from the Son of man (ashamed of me, of him shall), and then Jesus said that the Son of man shall come in his own glory and in His Father’s glory. Jesus did not say that the Son of man will come in my glory.

    Luke 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father’s, and of the holy angels.

    ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall MEANS THERE ARE TWO MEN INVOLVED.


    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
    Moreover, not once in the entire New Testament did Jesus ever say He was coming back to earth. Rather, Jesus said His work was finished in the world and He was no more in the world.

    Why didn’t Jesus say He was going to return to earth if He had been planning to return to earth? If Jesus was planning to return to earth why did Jesus say I have finished my work, the world will see me no more, and I am no more in the world?

    (John 14:19, John 17:11, John 17:4, John 19:30)

    Can't answer that? No worries, no Christian has ever been able to explain why Jesus said that if He was planning to return to earth.

    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
    Baha'u'llah was not the Son of man, nor did He ever claim to be.

    He was the return of the Son of Man because He was the return of the Christ Spirit, one like the Son of Man.

    If Jesus was the Son of Man the following verses referring to the ends times Messiah cannot be about the Jesus.
    They are about Baha'u'llah who was one like the Son of man.

    Daniel 7:13-14 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

    Jesus ascended into heaven in the clouds. Baha’u’llah, one like the son of man, descended from the clouds of heaven of the Will of God, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. These verses are about an earthly Kingdom, not a heavenly Kingdom. Jesus’ Kingdom is in heaven, Baha’u’llah’s Kingdom will be on earth, after it is built by humans.

    John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
     
  20. The_Fisher_King

    The_Fisher_King Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
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    The Qur'an talks of a physical resurrection of the dead, when souls will be joined with physical bodies.

    I believe that Paradise will certainly be for those who believe in Allah and the Day of Judgment and do righteous good deeds.
     
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