Yes, yes, and yes!
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If Jesus returned to this world, how would you know it was Jesus?
- Thread starter Trailblazer
- Start date
Yes, yes, and yes!
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I agree that all biblical scripture was given by inspiration of God, but inspired men are fallible so they can make mistakes and so can those men who compiled the bible. That means that the bible is not inerrant.
Because, as I just said, there is a lot of room for error whenever fallible men are involved in anything. God by contrast is infallible. Baha'is believe that Jesus and Baha'u'llah were Manifestations of God, and that they are infallible and whatever they would write would be as if God had written it Himself. That means that if Jesus had written anything it would be as if God had written it Himself. Since Baha'u'llah wrote His own scriptures we believe that whatever He wrote is as if God had written it Himself. This is a Baha'i belief called Divine unity and it is based upon what Baha'u'llah wrote:
"The essence of belief in Divine unity consisteth in regarding Him Who is the Manifestation of God and Him Who is the invisible, the inaccessible, the unknowable Essence as one and the same. By this is meant that whatever pertaineth to the former, all His acts and doings, whatever He ordaineth or forbiddeth, should be considered, in all their aspects, and under all circumstances, and without any reservation, as identical with the Will of God Himself." Gleanings, p. 167
That is what Jesus meant when He said "I and my Father are one" (John 10:30). To Baha'is that verse means that Jesus and God are one and the same, so whatever pertains to Jesus, all His acts and doings, are identical with the Will of God Himself.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Where in the Qur'an does it say that the afterlife (heaven) is a physical place?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
It comes from the Baha'i Reference Library online. The Baha'i Faith has no clergy so we are responsible to teach ourselves.
Baha’i Reference Library (old version)
Baha’i Reference Library (new version, downloadable)
I am mostly quoting from The Works of Bahá'u'lláh
InChrist
Free4ever
Okay, then you are still following the teachings the Baha’i organization. What if Baha’u’llah is one of those false Christs or prophets Jesus warned about and said not to believe or listen to ( Matthew 24)?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, I am not following any teachings from the Baha'i organization because the Baha'i organization does not have any "teachings."
In that way, the Baha'i Faith is very different from Christianity that has clergy that teaches Christians what the Bible says and means.
What if He isn't? How could He be a false prophet if He actually fulfilled the Bible prophecies for the return of Christ? You won't be able to show me one other claimant who has fulfilled all the prophecies, I guarantee it.
Don't you think you owe it to yourself to at least look at the prophecies that He fulfilled before calling Him a false prophet? Those prophecies and how they were fulfilled by Baha'u'llah are delineated in the book entitled Thief in the Night by William Sears.
That is a lot to take in but a few key prophecies and how some of them were fulfilled are shown in this 10 minute video.
Matthew 24:30
"[the Son of Man will come] on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory". The Second Coming will not be comparable to the incarnation, if someone says they are the messiah, they're lying; if someone tells you they've met the messiah, they're mistaken. "if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it."
We are told by Jesus that we won't have to figure it out. "as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man"
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
What Bible translation says: "The Second Coming will not be comparable to the incarnation, if someone says they are the messiah, they're lying; if someone tells you they've met the messiah, they're mistaken. "if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it.""
Matthew 24:30 is not Jesus saying He will return. Jesus says we will see the Son of man.
Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?
Jesus did not say we won't have to figure it out, you said that. Rather, Jesus said in many verses that the Son of Man will come as a thief in the night so we should be watching.
#168 Trailblazer
Lightening has already flashed from east to west. It happened in the 19th century when Christians were not watching.
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What pray tell do you imagine Matthew 24 to be about if not the, again quoting Jesus, "hour your Lord doth come"?
No, He just said you won't need people to point out the return.
Indeed. There won't be knowledge of the time, there won't be anyone preparing the way. Jesus will just come and all around the world people will mourn because everyone will know that their time is over.
If Jesus had his 2nd coming, you'd recognize him. He'd be the one nailed to "another" cross, accused of helping the poor, healing the sick (advocating universal health care--Obamacare), opposing war (accused of being anti-American), etc.
We might impress Jesus by holding up our crosses (reminding him of that happy time he had the last time he was crucified).
We might impress Jesus by holding up our crosses (reminding him of that happy time he had the last time he was crucified).
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Evidence of the existence of soul has never been found. Science has been active since about 2,500 years. Can you give me any evidence to believe in existence of soul or Allah or in any Allah choosing someone as his messenger?
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Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
It is a Bahai belief that the uneducated 19th Century Iranian preacher was Sayoshyant, Kalki and Maitreya, all rolled in one. Why would other people have this absurd and stupid belief? If you talk of theist Hindus, then they believe that Kalki will come 425,000 years from now at the end of Kaliyuga. I do not believe even in that silliness.
For the second coming, these miracles have to be world-wide miracles for everyone to see and experience. They will in fact be witnessed by all live on TV.
Anything less (like Bahaullah's words) does not qualify.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Why don't you believe in upward of 25,000 'tablets' (for the uninitiated, 'posts in the forum') that I have written? What I have written is none other than Brahman's writing. There is no duality here as was in case of the Iranian preacher - his Allah and himself. Even what the uneducated 19th Century Iranian preacher wrote was second-hand. He was not Allah himself. What I am writing is first-hand, since I am myself Brahman and none other.
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Matthew 24:42-44
Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Jesus was referring to the coming if the Son of Man in the glory of His Father. Please note how Jesus differentiated Himself from the Son of man who would come in the glory of His Father in the following verses.
Baha'is believe that Jesus came in the station of the Son, and the Christ Spirit returned in the station of the Father, in Baha'u'llah, which means Glory of God in Arabic.
Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
Luke 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father’s, and of the holy angels.
Where did Jesus ever say that?
But how would people know it was really Jesus? That was the original question on my OP.
if a man came claiming to be Jesus how would you know it was really Jesus? After all, there are no photos of what Jesus looked like when he walked the earth 2000 years ago.
Anyone can claim that he is the return of Jesus and that is no doubt what Jesus gave this warning to His disciples (Matthew 24:3-5).
So how would you know a man who claimed to be Jesus was really Jesus? What would he have to do to prove to you that He was Jesus? Or would you just believe any man who claimed to be Jesus?
All Scripture is God-breathed . 2 Tim 3.16 . So your suggesting that God is ok with his message being filled with errors ?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That is essentially what Baha'u'llah did.
Baha'u'llah was born into a wealthy family but instead of pursuing a life of power and leisure, He chose to devote His energies to a range of philanthropies which had, by the early 1840s, earned Him renown as "father of the poor." Later, after He realized that He had received a Revelation from God, and those in power realized what He was claiming, and that He brought new teachings that diverged from traditional Islamic beliefs, He was vehemently opposed for it, just like you said.
Baha'u'llah was thrown into and the taken from the black-pit prison in Tihrán for judgement before the authorities. His death was expected hourly, but He was banished to ‘Iráq and finally to Israel. He was twice stoned, once scourged, thrice poisoned, scarred with hundred-pound chains which cut through his flesh and rested upon the bones of his shoulders. He lived a prisoner and an exile for nearly half a century.
Baha'u'llah suffered for bringing new teachings just as Jesus suffered for bringing new teachings. History repeats itself.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
They don't, because they are still waiting for the Messiah/Promised One that they have made in their own image, according to their respective beliefs regarding what he will be like and do.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Where did you ever get such an idea? You certainly did not get it from the Bible.
This is what you want, this is not what Jesus ever promised to do when He returns. Baha'is do not need to see any miracles to believe in Baha'u'llah because we know who He was by His own Person, what He did on His Mission, what He wrote, and by all the Bible prophecies He fulfilled by His coming.
Jesus said we would know a true prophet by his fruits, not by His miracles.
Matthew 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Fruits: the pleasant or successful result of work or actions: fruit
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
What Bahaollah did was for his own ego. He wanted to be an even greater Mohammad. Bahaollah did not do work for his living in all his life. He thrived on the funding by his followers, lived in large mansions in with three wives and fourteen children, except for short periods when he was imprisoned. Other religious leaders also do that.