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This is true, which is why those of us with that ability sometimes attempt to inform those of us who currently lack the ability. However, as has been discussed (with another poster saying that she felt the urge to "punch the face" of someone who even hinted that there be a question of whether or not their life was possibly in a good state at the moment), many people without the ability get extremely defensive over what they wish to continue to interpret as their suffering at the hands of [insert agent of persecution/masochistic-punishment/damaging-indifference here].I agree, but we do not all possess the same capacity for controlling our own perceptions and reactions. Many of us believe that we have NO capacity for it.
How ironic. If I were to draw a similar analogy, I would have chosen theism. How people believe beyond the complete lack of compelling evidence that there exists some being or force that cares about them, or pushes buttons of cosmic control in the universe. And THAT is what I see as logically baseless. I believe strongly that you can't have arrived at a conclusion evidentially NO BETTER THAN MAKE-BELIEVE without having abandoned logic. In my experience, if people believe in God, they seem to suddenly become unable to deal with reality as it presents itself - and they are then, as you say, helpless to change how they feel. I am atheist in the extreme, and I simply do not have this problem in either sense. I possess tools that allow me to change my mental outlook nearly "at will," and I do not believe things that do not sufficiently present themselves in my reality - including the idea that I am "suffering" to some great degree that I need fret over.I see atheists claiming all the time that they are not able to choose what they believe even though what they believe (atheism) is logically baseless. For a lot of people I think the same applies to their suffering. Believing that they are helpless to change how they feel, they become helpless to change how they feel.
Exactly why someone might try and communicate to someone else that the option exists. However, as stated, this is usually met with hostility.But we don't really have that option if we are unaware of having it, even if that option is actually available to us.
Yes, the 'lesson' of the story of Job is to trust in the benevolence of God even though we don't see it or understand it.Just as it did for the author of Job.
It is logically baseless. However, it is a reasonable choice in that they gain some real life benefit from the belief. Something an atheist cannot do, because he's negated that possibility in advance, based on nothing.If I were to draw a similar analogy, I would have chosen theism. How people believe beyond the complete lack of compelling evidence that there exists some being or force that cares about them, or pushes buttons of cosmic control in the universe. And THAT is what I see as logically baseless.
The problem, of course, is that you think there is something other than "make-believe". You think we humans can actually know things to be so, when in fact, we can only guess and presume them to be so based on our own biased and limited cognitive processes. Logic is fine as far as it goes, but it doesn't go very far. Reason is ... reasonable enough, but it's just a thought process based on some criteria or goal; usually the criteria of some desired functionality or outcome. Neither of which provide any particular pathway to the truth of things, and neither of which produce any.I believe strongly that you can't have arrived at a conclusion evidentially NO BETTER THAN MAKE-BELIEVE without having abandoned logic. In my experience, if people believe in God, they seem to suddenly become unable to deal with reality as it presents itself - and they are then, as you say, helpless to change how they feel.
Well, you are clearly biased in the extreme. To the point of believing entirely in the validity of your beliefs. (Same as any religious zealot does.)I am atheist in the extreme, and I simply do not have this problem in either sense. I possess tools that allow me to change my mental outlook nearly "at will," and I do not believe things that do not sufficiently present themselves in my reality - including the idea that I am "suffering" to some great degree that I need fret over.
Yes, I can see that.Exactly why someone might try and communicate to someone else that the option exists. However, as stated, this is usually met with hostility.
Not all of it.our suffering is the result of our own selfish actions and has nothing to do with the Beloved.
service to self is what leads to suffering.
This is completely false. From what I have seen and experienced, and given all my conversations with theists (a great many, I might add) I have my own personal (albeit admittedly anecdotal) evidence that I see great benefits from my outlook on life and my philosophy that these theists are completely ignorant of. They still have all sorts of "Worldly" problems that they go on to say they are "giving to God." What a load of crap. They've got their heads up their butts, and don't even have the wherewithal to realize it. I don't experience the problems they experience. I don't have the issues they take with reality on my mind. Make of it what you will... I honestly couldn't care less if you believe me or not, think I am delusional or arrogant or whatever. I don't have the same problems as so many others, and it isn't because I don't experience many of the same things, believe me.It is logically baseless. However, it is a reasonable choice in that they gain some real life benefit from the belief. Something an atheist cannot do, because he's negated that possibility in advance, based on nothing.
No. I get the solipsistic view/idea. I do. I just don't give one flying crap about it. I understand fully that I can't know anything with some form of "absolute certainty." You want to use this as an excuse to believe whatever you want... like all theists who present this nonsense. None of it matters. We will ALWAYS be forced to come to terms with THE REALITY WE ARE PRESENTED. Always. Big duh there, my friend.The problem, of course, is that you think there is something other than "make-believe". You think we humans can actually know things to be so, when in fact, we can only guess and presume them to be so based on our own biased and limited cognitive processes.
What can I say? We have mind-based tools to help us understand and cope with the world. And I am pretty darn sure your tool-box doesn't come with a "spirit detector" of any sort. You don't have some "extrasensory" perception that allows you to know, observe, or accurately report on any other-worldly realms. You may want to think you do, but honestly now, if you did, I would also expect your accounts to be much more well-communicated, and be correlated with any other person's accounts who also has this "spirit-detection" sense. Instead you ALL (all theists that is) just trip all over yourselves, and display monumental levels of ignorance and engage in all sorts of tomfoolery to try and explain away questions or make things up to fill in gaps. It's a ****-show of the most egregious sort. Hey - maybe I just have an extrasensory "BS-detector," eh?Logic is fine as far as it goes, but it doesn't go very far. Reason is ... reasonable enough, but it's just a thought process based on some criteria or goal; usually the criteria of some desired functionality or outcome. Neither of which provide any particular pathway to the truth of things, and neither of which produce any.
And just what is it that I believe, huh? Any ideas? I won't tell you that I believe God doesn't exist, I can tell you that much. I don't know, and won't believe until sufficient demonstration has been made or sufficient evidence has been presented. That's the only honest position to take. Which is how I can trust my instincts that tell me people like you are dishonest. What I do feel I can pretty much rely on is that NONE of you theists have any of the details right. None of you. That's something I DO believe zealously, and it would take quite a bit to convince me otherwise. From what I have seen and read from you, you sure don't have the goods, I'll tell you that much.Well, you are clearly biased in the extreme. To the point of believing entirely in the validity of your beliefs. (Same as any religious zealot does.)
Not all of it.
Thanks for clarifying.I was in a bit of a hurry when I wrote that. I did not mean that the way it sounds. I meant that God designed this world knowing that people would suffer; I did not mean that God purposefully designed it so that just so people would suffer. Either way though, God is not off the hook, Imo.
OTOH, if God is All-Knowing and All-Wise it is logical to think that this was the best design God could have come up with to achieve what He wanted to achieve for humanity, so suffering was in humanity's best interest. But still, if you were the one suffering you might be singing a different tune. Of course, then people will tell me they have suffered but they were able to rise above it, but they cannot really know the extent of the suffering of other people, the duration or the magnitude, or what resources that person had to cope. Only the person who suffered (and God) can ever know that. All we can do is describe our experiences to other people but nobody can really understand unless they have walked in our moccasins.
...We all experience loss, pain and inevitably our own mortality. We all know first hand suffering exists. So if there really is a God, does that God truly care and what is God’s purpose in allowing suffering?
IMO, the message of Job is "might makes right."Yes, the 'lesson' of the story of Job is to trust in the benevolence of God even though we don't see it or understand it.
I found at Job 2:4-5 that we can see or understand why God allows suffering, at least for the time being.Yes, the 'lesson' of the story of Job is to trust in the benevolence of God even though we don't see it or understand it.
Hey there. You look troubled as if the weight of the world is upon your shoulders. Friend, do not be disheartened and know that when the chips are down and everyone abandons you, Jesus still loves you. He will carry the burden of your sins. For those who are oppressed Christ will ease your suffering. Do not be afraid or perturbed.
Many of us are familiar with such a narrative in Christianity where suffering has meaning and a remedy is offered to alleviate misery. How that kind of narrative resonates is the topic of this OP.
We all experience loss, pain and inevitably our own mortality. We all know first hand suffering exists. So if there really is a God, does that God truly care and what is God’s purpose in allowing suffering?
Do religions other than Christianity provide similar narrative or is the a substantial difference in perspective?
If there is no God, is there harm in finding comfort in stories like those in the Bible? What should be our best response as we inevitably face adversity?
Hey there. You look troubled as if the weight of the world is upon your shoulders. Friend, do not be disheartened and know that when the chips are down and everyone abandons you, Jesus still loves you. He will carry the burden of your sins. For those who are oppressed Christ will ease your suffering. Do not be afraid or perturbed.
Many of us are familiar with such a narrative in Christianity where suffering has meaning and a remedy is offered to alleviate misery. How that kind of narrative resonates is the topic of this OP.
We all experience loss, pain and inevitably our own mortality. We all know first hand suffering exists. So if there really is a God, does that God truly care and what is God’s purpose in allowing suffering?
Do religions other than Christianity provide similar narrative or is the a substantial difference in perspective?
If there is no God, is there harm in finding comfort in stories like those in the Bible? What should be our best response as we inevitably face adversity?
If there is no God, is there harm in finding comfort in stories like those in the Bible? What should be our best response as we inevitably face adversity?
Satan was not created to be a rebel. He abused his free will as well as misusing his station as a guardian in Eden to lure the humans away from God. He wanted their worship for himself...and the only way to get it was to separate them from their God. He did this by deception, which is why Jesus called him "the father of the lie".
Jesus certainly treated satan as if he were a real entity. How many times did he mention satan as the one behind the scenes, ruling the world? (1 John 5:19; John 14:30)
How does a sinless Jesus contend with the three temptations of his adversary? (Luke 4: 1-13; Hebrews 4:15; Hebrews 7:26)
How is the devil "the father of the lie" if the devil did not lie to the woman in Eden? (John 8:44)
Where will I find any reference to the devil as a mere quality of evil in men?
The whole narrative of the Bible falls apart without the fall of man and satan's role in it. Jesus came to undo what satan did in Eden. If you don't grasp that very important fact, then nothing makes sense without it.
In your belief system, why are we in this life if God is as loving as the Bible says he is? Why is there pain and suffering and death if God purposed for us to live in peaceful conditions in paradise on earth forever?....and why did Jesus come? Why did he have to die as it was foretold in the Hebrew scriptures. ( Isaiah 53:5; 9)
If satan isn't real, how do you make sense of any of it?
I agree that having a literal Satan is very important for the narrative of many Christians. Having a literal Satan is not part of a Baha’i worldview, nor is it a necessary part of our exegesis of the Bible. Increasing numbers of Christians see the story of Adam and Eve as allegorical. Same deal with the Christ being tested prior to the start of His Ministry and Satan for that matter.
Of course if Satan really wasn’t created to be a rebel God either failed or lacked His Prophetic powers on the day Satan came into being.
These are great questions @Deeje and would require some explanation. Any of these questions could make up a thread in its own right.
How about reframing the questions. How do Baha’is and Christians view God and to what extent are their views supported by the Bible?
How do Christians and Baha’is understand suffering and how well are each other’s views supported by the Bible?
What is God’s purpose for humanity on earth in the future? What do Christians and Baha’is share and where do they differ?
How do Christians and Baha’is view the purpose of Jesus’ Coming?
Why was Christ crucified from a Christian and Baha’i perspective?
Feel free to start a thread and tag me. I don’t mind where you put it but keep in mind there are people on this forum who seem fixated on trashing Christians and Baha’is.
If God exists, why does He allow suffering?
If one believes God “allows” something, then one believes God has a choice. Personally, I don’t believe God has a choice in what we do in our living lives. God does have the ability to give us instructions on how we should live our lives. The choice is then ours to make.
Now this is just how I see things
How about you?
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