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If God exists, why does He allow suffering?

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Hey there. You look troubled as if the weight of the world is upon your shoulders. Friend, do not be disheartened and know that when the chips are down and everyone abandons you, Jesus still loves you. He will carry the burden of your sins. For those who are oppressed Christ will ease your suffering. Do not be afraid or perturbed.

Many of us are familiar with such a narrative in Christianity where suffering has meaning and a remedy is offered to alleviate misery. How that kind of narrative resonates is the topic of this OP.

We all experience loss, pain and inevitably our own mortality. We all know first hand suffering exists. So if there really is a God, does that God truly care and what is God’s purpose in allowing suffering?

Do religions other than Christianity provide similar narrative or is the a substantial difference in perspective?

If there is no God, is there harm in finding comfort in stories like those in the Bible? What should be our best response as we inevitably face adversity?
 

Sirona

Hindu Wannabe
This was the question that drove me away from Christianity.

What spontaneously comes to my mind is Epicurus' trilemma:

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

Catholics believe in something I would now call similar to karma. They believe you consciously suffer something and then offer it up to God in atonement for you or others, compensating bad deeds which such a "good" deed. They believe suffering endured in such way is "very valuable".
 

darklydreaming

New Member
The real question is why would anything good happen at all to anyone, when we are rebellious sinners inhabiting a fallen world? Yet God, in order to glorify himself through the display of his mercy, chose to save some of us, and the suffering which we experience now does not at all compare with our future glorification.
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
Hey there. You look troubled as if the weight of the world is upon your shoulders. Friend, do not be disheartened and know that when the chips are down and everyone abandons you, Jesus still loves you. He will carry the burden of your sins. For those who are oppressed Christ will ease your suffering. Do not be afraid or perturbed.

Many of us are familiar with such a narrative in Christianity where suffering has meaning and a remedy is offered to alleviate misery. How that kind of narrative resonates is the topic of this OP.

We all experience loss, pain and inevitably our own mortality. We all know first hand suffering exists. So if there really is a God, does that God truly care and what is God’s purpose in allowing suffering?

Do religions other than Christianity provide similar narrative or is the a substantial difference in perspective?

If there is no God, is there harm in finding comfort in stories like those in the Bible? What should be our best response as we inevitably face adversity?

Based on malicious events happening beyond anybody's control, if God were to actually exist, then God evidently lacks the characteristics of being highly benevolent as well as being omnipotent, omnipresent,, and omniscient. .
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
This was the question that drove me away from Christianity.

What spontaneously comes to my mind is Epicurus' trilemma:

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

Catholics believe in something I would now call similar to karma. They believe you consciously suffer something and then offer it up to God in atonement for you or others, compensating bad deeds which such a "good" deed. They believe suffering endured in such way is "very valuable".

The question of suffering in relation to the God of Abraham seems to be an important concern for atheists and your epicurus dilemma captures the problem nicely. Its all the more meaningful as you once were Christian but then found an alternative path. I've often heard Hindus say how a belief in reincarnation and karma can enable them to make sense of suffering. A belief in previous lives may account for particular tests and difficulties in this life, particularly one who has a disability.

Of course I am neither Christian nor Hindu. But whatever our belief, coming to terms with suffering is a central to any philosophy or theology.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
There is no logical answer for a believer in God in my opinion.

For even the first creatures suffered lived and died, so from where came their bad karma? And how do creatures such as single celled organisms which don’t have the freewill to choose between right/wrong actions acquire negative (or even positive) karma anyway?

At best we can hope for a realm where God balances out such suffering, although I acknowledge there are good logical reasons not to do so.

So in summary I find myself to be a believer in God because I’m hardwired to do so, and a believer in the immortal spirit because of my inherited family cultural beliefs. But I offer no proof of my belief because there is none that I know of.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
The real question is why would anything good happen at all to anyone, when we are rebellious sinners inhabiting a fallen world?

Being inheritantly sinful in a fallen world is a very Christian narrative. One value I see in this perspective is the need for something beyond ourselves like Christ or God to make us more whole, less sinful and better human beings. There's the hope and promise of a better world.

Yet God, in order to glorify himself through the display of his mercy, chose to save some of us, and the suffering which we experience now does not at all compare with our future glorification.

The hope and promise of a better life and world beyond thios earthly abode is certainly is comforting.
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
The real question is why would anything good happen at all to anyone, when we are rebellious sinners inhabiting a fallen world? Yet God, in order to glorify himself through the display of his mercy, chose to save some of us, and the suffering which we experience now does not at all compare with our future glorification.

As I've noted elsewhere in some other discussions about Christianity, Jesus's family tree has a time span of 77 generations listed between his generation and Adam whom the Bible claims was the "first man". Reference: (Luke 3:23-38) and Eve whom the Bible claims as the mother of all the living. (Genesis 3:20)

However, the Australian aborigines have evidently been in Australia for over a thousand consecutive generations. Reference: Aboriginal Australians - Wikipedia

There have been hundreds of generations of Native Americans between the time their common ancestry migrated from Asia until the time of Christ.
Reference: Native Americans in the United States - Wikipedia

Of course, the Bible is wrong; in fact, there were people prior to the 76th generation before Christ that allegedly was spawned by Adam and Eve.

Adam as being the first man and perpetrator of original sin is an important premise of Christianity. If Adam wasn't the first man, then there isn't actually any "origin sin". Jesus supposedly died on the Cross to save humankind from "original sin". If there isn't any "original sin" from which to be saved, then Jesus Christ's death on the Cross is pretty pointless and meaningless. Evidently, there were many generations of people prior to the 76th generation before Christ whom the Bible claims was spawned by Adam. So then, Adam, Eve and original sin are mythological. There is neither any "first man" nor "original sin" throughout human evolution. Thus, Jesus Christ having died on the cross to save mankind from "original sin" is not reality but is rather mythological.

The fossil record isn't the only evidence in support of evolution. There is other collaborating evidence, such as overwhelming genetic evidence of common ancestry between humans and other great ape species.

Specific examples from comparative physiology and biochemistry:

Chromosome 2 in humans

Main article: Chromosome 2 (human)

Further information: Chimpanzee Genome Project § Genes of the Chromosome 2 fusion site

Figure 1b: Fusion of ancestral chromosomes left distinctive remnants of telomeres, and a vestigial centromere
Evidence for the evolution of Homo sapiens from a common ancestor with chimpanzees is found in the number of chromosomes in humans as compared to all other members of Hominidae. All hominidae have 24 pairs of chromosomes, except humans, who have only 23 pairs. Human chromosome 2 is a result of an end-to-end fusion of two ancestral chromosomes.

The evidence for this includes:
The correspondence of chromosome 2 to two ape chromosomes. The closest human relative, the common chimpanzee, has near-identical DNA sequences to human chromosome 2, but they are found in two separate chromosomes. The same is true of the more distant gorilla and orangutan.
The presence of a vestigial centromere. Normally a chromosome has just one centromere, but in chromosome 2 there are remnants of a second centromere.
The presence of vestigial telomeres. These are normally found only at the ends of a chromosome, but in chromosome 2 there are additional telomere sequences in the middle.

Chromosome 2 thus presents strong evidence in favour of the common descent of humans and other apes. According to J. W. Ijdo, "We conclude that the locus cloned in cosmids c8.1 and c29B is the relic of an ancient telomere-telomere fusion and marks the point at which two ancestral ape chromosomes fused to give rise to human chromosome 2

Fusion of ancestral chromosomes left distinctive remnants of telomeres, and a vestigial centromere

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_o...on_descent

220px-Chromosome2_merge.png


Endogenous retroviruses (or ERVs) are remnant sequences in the genome left from ancient viral infections in an organism. The retroviruses (or virogenes) are always passed on to the next generation of that organism that received the infection. This leaves the virogene left in the genome. Because this event is rare and random, finding identical chromosomal positions of a virogene in two different species suggests common ancestry. Cats (Felidae) present a notable instance of virogene sequences demonstrating common descent. The standard phylogenetic tree for Felidae have smaller cats (Felis chaus, Felis silvestris, Felis nigripes, and Felis catus) diverging from larger cats such as the subfamily Pantherinae and other carnivores. The fact that small cats have an ERV where the larger cats do not suggests that the gene was inserted into the ancestor of the small cats after the larger cats had diverged. Another example of this is with humans and chimps. Humans contain numerous ERVs that comprise a considerable percentage of the genome. Sources vary, but 1% to 8% has been proposed. Humans and chimps share seven different occurrences of virogenes, while all primates share similar retroviruses congruent with phylogeny.

endogenous-retroviruses.jpg


There's plenty of evidence humans share common ancestry with other great apes.

Evidence of common descent - Wikipedia

ERVs provide the closest thing to a mathematical proof for evolution.. ERVs are the relics of ancient viral infections preserved in our DNA. The odd thing is many ERVs are located in exactly the same position on our genome and the chimpanzee genome! There are two explanations for the perfectly matched ERV locations. Either it is an unbelievable coincidence that viruses just by chance were inserted in exactly the same location in our genomes, or humans and chimps share a common ancestor. The chances that a virus was inserted at the exact same location is 1 in 3,000,000,000. Humans and chimps share 7 instances of viruses inserted at perfectly matched location. It was our common ancestor that was infected, and we both inherited the ERVs.

Johnson, Welkin E.; Coffin, John M. (1999-08-31). "Constructing primate phylogenies from ancient retrovirus sequences". Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. 96(18): 10254–10260. Bibcode:1999PNAS...9610254J. doi:10.1073/pnas.96.18.10254. ISSN 0027-8424. PMC 17875. PMID 10468595

Human genetic diversity is too great for there to have ever been a human population size that consisted of less than ca.10,000 individuals. Pairwise Sequentially Markovian Coalescent (PSMC) analysis confirms a population bottleneck in humans that consisted of no fewer than ca, 10,000 individuals. Source: ( Li, Heng, and Durbin, Richard. ) "Inference of Human Population History from Individual Whole-Genome Sequences". Nature International Weekly Journal of Science. 28 July 2001. PSMC estimate on simulated data. : Inference of human population history from individual whole-genome sequences : Nature : Nature Publishing Group

If there were the most severe population bottle-necking such as one breeding pair that is portrayed in the case of the Biblical Adam and Eve, then there would be a maximum of 4 alleles passed on by Adam and Eve to their children. Furthermore, the subsequent inbreeding would cause some loss of alleles due to genetic drifting. There would not have been genetic diversity in the small group of Adam, Eve and their children who would've had to commit incest among each other for the procreation of their inbred children. A lack of genetic diversity would have persisted for thousands of generations until genetic mutations could cause the genetic diversity of today's population. Based on the number of different alleles there are for the number of genes within the current population and the known rate of mutations per nucleotide sites in humans, geneticists can calculate the minimum number of people needed to create the current amount of genetic diversity. Numerous genetic studies suggest that there were several thousands of people more than two people during the most severe population bottleneck which ever occurred in human history.

DNA segments ( Alu repeats ) insert themselves at various chromosomal locations. There are various forms of Alu sequences and several thousand families of Alu. One well-studied family of Alu is called Ya5, which has been inserted into human chromosomes at 57 mapped locations. If we were to have descended from a single pair of ancestors such as Adam and Eve, then we all would have each of the 57 elements inserted at the same location points of our chromosomes. " However, the human population consists of groups of people who share some insertion points but not others. The multiple shared categories make it clear that although a human population bottleneck occurred, it was definitely never as small as two. In fact, this line of evidence also indicates that there were at least several thousand people when the population was at its smallest". Source: ( Venema, Dennis and Falk, Darrel ) " Does Genetics Point to a Single Primal Couple?". 5 April 2010. Does Genetics Point to a Single Primal Couple? | The BioLogos Forum

Coalescence theory analysis of single nucleotide polymorphisms and linkage disequilibrium indicates the mean effective population size for hominid lineage is 100,000 individuals over the course of the last 30 million years. The effective population size estimated from linkage disequilibrium is a minimum of 10,000 followed by an expansion in the last 20,000 years." Source: ( Tenesa, Albert, Navarro, Paul, Hayes, Ben J., Duffy, David L., Clarke,Geraldine, Goodard, Mike E. and Visscher, Peter M.) " Recent Human Effective Population Size Estimated from Linkage Disequilibrium". Genome Research. 17 April 2007 Recent human effective population size estimated from linkage disequilibrium

Indeed, there is ample genetic evidence that biblical Adam and Eve never actually existed.
 
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Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Based on malicious events happening beyond anybody's control, if God were to actually exist, then God evidently lacks the characteristics of being highly benevolent as well as being omnipotent, omnipresent,, and omniscient. .

That is certainly the dilemma and perspective of many atheists and agnostics. So if God were all these things why doesn't He act? One answer is He doesn't exist so therefore there is no intervention or involvement. I see God does exist and chooses to intervene and become involved.
 

leov

Well-Known Member
Hey there. You look troubled as if the weight of the world is upon your shoulders. Friend, do not be disheartened and know that when the chips are down and everyone abandons you, Jesus still loves you. He will carry the burden of your sins. For those who are oppressed Christ will ease your suffering. Do not be afraid or perturbed.

Many of us are familiar with such a narrative in Christianity where suffering has meaning and a remedy is offered to alleviate misery. How that kind of narrative resonates is the topic of this OP.

We all experience loss, pain and inevitably our own mortality. We all know first hand suffering exists. So if there really is a God, does that God truly care and what is God’s purpose in allowing suffering?

Do religions other than Christianity provide similar narrative or is the a substantial difference in perspective?

If there is no God, is there harm in finding comfort in stories like those in the Bible? What should be our best response as we inevitably face adversity?
Rumi — 'The wound is the place where the Light enters you.'
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
There is no logical answer for a believer in God in my opinion.

For even the first creatures suffered lived and died, so from where came their bad karma? And how do creatures such as single celled organisms which don’t have the freewill to choose between right/wrong actions acquire negative (or even positive) karma anyway?

At best we can hope for a realm where God balances out such suffering, although I acknowledge there are good logical reasons not to do so.

So in summary I find myself to be a believer in God because I’m hardwired to do so, and a believer in the immortal spirit because of my inherited family cultural beliefs. But I offer no proof of my belief because there is none that I know of.

I can certainly identify with the experience of growing up a theist with a belief in God and an immortal spirit as that was my upbringing as a Christian. As some stage it appears valuable as we mature as adults to question our beliefs and embark on an journey to consider if what we have been raised with is the best way of viewing the world. For me as a Christian that took me through reconnecting with my Christian roots, Buddhism, Hinduism, agnosticism, atheism and eventually the Baha'i Faith. Ironically you may have started where I ended up and the outcome of your search may take you in a completely unexpected direction. Part of that journey for me was meaningfully addressing the question of suffering. The best answers I found were both in the Christian and Baha'i Faith. All the best with finding your answers.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Hey there. You look troubled as if the weight of the world is upon your shoulders. Friend, do not be disheartened and know that when the chips are down and everyone abandons you, Jesus still loves you. He will carry the burden of your sins. For those who are oppressed Christ will ease your suffering. Do not be afraid or perturbed.

Many of us are familiar with such a narrative in Christianity where suffering has meaning and a remedy is offered to alleviate misery. How that kind of narrative resonates is the topic of this OP.

We all experience loss, pain and inevitably our own mortality. We all know first hand suffering exists. So if there really is a God, does that God truly care and what is God’s purpose in allowing suffering?

Do religions other than Christianity provide similar narrative or is the a substantial difference in perspective?

If there is no God, is there harm in finding comfort in stories like those in the Bible? What should be our best response as we inevitably face adversity?
I find it very difficult, if not impossible, to believe God is All-Loving given all the suffering in the world, especially given the fact that God designed this world so people would suffer, and some people suffer much more than others. Sure, the Baha'i belief is that those who suffer most will attain the most perfection, but one still has to suffer through this world to realize the benefits and they need an extraordinary amount of faith to believe there is something much better waiting for them in the afterlife. I cannot see any of this as just and fair, but who am I to criticize God or God's Method? Nobody.
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
That is certainly the dilemma and perspective of many atheists and agnostics. So if God were all these things why doesn't He act? One answer is He doesn't exist so therefore there is no intervention or involvement. I see God does exist and chooses to intervene and become involved.

I fail to understand why an all-powerful being, who'd fail to keep child rapists away from hurting innocent children, should be considered as being highly benevolent.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Hey there. You look troubled as if the weight of the world is upon your shoulders. Friend, do not be disheartened and know that when the chips are down and everyone abandons you, Jesus still loves you. He will carry the burden of your sins. For those who are oppressed Christ will ease your suffering. Do not be afraid or perturbed.

Many of us are familiar with such a narrative in Christianity where suffering has meaning and a remedy is offered to alleviate misery. How that kind of narrative resonates is the topic of this OP.

We all experience loss, pain and inevitably our own mortality. We all know first hand suffering exists. So if there really is a God, does that God truly care and what is God’s purpose in allowing suffering?
Every answer to this question falls into one of three categories:

- God wants to prevent suffering but can't do it.
- God could prevent suffering, but doesn't want to do it.
- God is both unable and unwilling to prevent suffering.

Do religions other than Christianity provide similar narrative or is the a substantial difference in perspective?

If there is no God, is there harm in finding comfort in stories like those in the Bible?
Yes, there's potentially tremendous harm. If you use promises of reward in Heaven to encourage people to be compliant and complacent, then they won't bother to do anything about the suffering or injustice they have to endure. This means that it will continue and that more people will have to endure it unnecessarily.

What should be our best response as we inevitably face adversity?
Look for ways to overcome it.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
That is certainly the dilemma and perspective of many atheists and agnostics. So if God were all these things why doesn't He act? One answer is He doesn't exist so therefore there is no intervention or involvement.
Another answer is that God does exist and there is no intervention or involvement.
I see God does exist and chooses to intervene and become involved.
Isn't this a Christian belief?
How does God intervene and become involved?
The whole point of free will is that we are on our own and God does not get involved.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
I find it very difficult, if not impossible, to believe God is All-Loving given all the suffering in the world, especially given the fact that God designed this world so people would suffer, and some people suffer much more than others. Sure, the Baha'i belief is that those who suffer most will attain the most perfection, but one still has to suffer through this world to realize the benefits and they need an extraordinary amount of faith to believe there is something much better waiting for them in the afterlife. I cannot see any of this as just and fair, but who am I to criticize God or God's Method? Nobody.

When I was writing this thread, I couldn't help but think about my Baha'i sister and how we are in very different places in answering this question. Like you, I have had a less than desirable upbringing and suffered deeply. Embracing the writings of Baha'u'llah didn't take it all away but it really did help a great deal. I feel profoundly grateful and indebted and just love a whole range of sacred writings from different faiths. But if I was in a car crash heading off to work on Monday and became very disabled, I may well feel differently? I have a sense from your response that you are not entirely impressed or satisfied with what God has given you. Would that be correct?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I fail to understand why an all-powerful being, who'd fail to keep child rapists away from hurting innocent children, should be considered as being highly benevolent.
If God intervened every time someone was about to get raped or murdered, etc., it would throw off the entire order in the world which is based upon free will, and evil people would become programmed robots. The solution is for evil people to follow the teachings and laws of the Messengers of God and if they did that there would be no evil in the world. So the way God demonstrates His benevolence is by sending those Messengers with teachings and laws.
 

ajay0

Well-Known Member
We all experience loss, pain and inevitably our own mortality. We all know first hand suffering exists. So if there really is a God, does that God truly care and what is God’s purpose in allowing suffering?

Do religions other than Christianity provide similar narrative or is the a substantial difference in perspective?


As per the Prajapita Brahmakumaris , the soul is originally perfect and pure, and has intrinsic bliss and joy. Through repeated births or reincarnations, it adds layers of impressions or karmic impurities in its consciousness, through the influence of sensory desires in the form of cravings and aversions. This layer of psychological impressions blurs this state of pure consciousness.

This makes it unconscious or body-conscious resulting in vicious conduct. The desires in the form of cravings and aversions results in actions transcending virtuous conduct and behavior for temporal pleasures related to lust, greed, hatred, ego-gratification and attachments.

This unnatural state of impure consciousness results in temporary pleasures but suffering in the longer run. This perpetuates indiscriminate pleasure-seeking, as lack of joy within results in further pleasure-seeking, and this results in a vicious cycle of inordinate pleasure-seeking and suffering.

Through remembrance of God and meditation, one is able to destroy the impurities in the consciousness and purify it, and access its natural state of bliss, joy and peace again.

The Prajapita Brahmakumaris teach Raja Yoga meditation as part of seven day courses in their centers in almost every country around the world. This has enabled many people to experience bliss and joy of their pure state of consciousness, and get rid of addictions to pleasure-seeking and substance abuse like alcoholism, smoking . This has also enabled many to experience better health as most diseases are of a psychosomatic nature.

Brahma Kumaris - What is Raja Yoga Meditation?
 
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