If God exists, why does He allow suffering?

[CG Didymus]

What God knows or knew about what we'd do is irrelevant, because WE didn't know. And because WE didn't know, we still had a choice. We still could have responded differently, but chose not to. It may have been a pointless exercise from God's perspective to send us a 'redeemer', but it certainly wasn't a pointless exercise from ours. We still have that option of redemption open to us every day of our lives.

But supposedly God told us exactly what to expect... such and such will happen and then this and then that. But, if Baha'u'llah, and Muhammad and The Bab, are returns of Christ, then it didn't go down like that. Sinners were going to keep on sinning and suffer judgement. Satan was going to be cast into the lake of fire. All things were going to be restored. The New Jerusalem was going to come on down and bad stuff would be gone. The return of Jesus was to be obvious for Christians. Some even thought that there would be a trumpet sound and they would be taken up while the evil world goes through the tribulations.

But Baha'u'llah has already come. Jesus isn't the one coming? What happened? And then what? We've already gone through the tribulations? It don't seem like it. It seems like we might very well be in or heading for the tribulations.

 

[Trailblazer]

But Baha'u'llah has already come. Jesus isn't the one coming?

If Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be, then Jesus is not coming back to earth.....

But since Jesus never ever promised to return, it would not matter even if Baha'u'llah was a fraud... Jesus still ain't coming back to earth, ever....

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

What happened? And then what? We've already gone through the tribulations? It don't seem like it. It seems like we might very well be in or heading for the tribulations.

Nobody except God really knows what the future holds, but if we believe in Baha'u'llah, there are some indications...

“The world is in travail, and its agitation waxeth day by day. Its face is turned towards waywardness and unbelief. Such shall be its plight, that to disclose it now would not be meet and seemly. Its perversity will long continue. And when the appointed hour is come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake. Then, and only then, will the Divine Standard be unfurled, and the Nightingale of Paradise warble its melody.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 118-119

 

[PureX]

But supposedly God told us exactly what to expect... such and such will happen and then this and then that. But, if Baha'u'llah, and Muhammad and The Bab, are returns of Christ, then it didn't go down like that. Sinners were going to keep on sinning and suffer judgement. Satan was going to be cast into the lake of fire. All things were going to be restored. The New Jerusalem was going to come on down and bad stuff would be gone. The return of Jesus was to be obvious for Christians. Some even thought that there would be a trumpet sound and they would be taken up while the evil world goes through the tribulations.

But Baha'u'llah has already come. Jesus isn't the one coming? What happened? And then what? We've already gone through the tribulations? It don't seem like it. It seems like we might very well be in or heading for the tribulations.

I don't put much 'truck' in men's stories about God. Especially stories that I do not believe were meant to be taken as fact, but were intended to be taken as representations of human ideals and questions regarding "God". I try to determine what the message of the story is, and if it applies to my own experience in some way. I don't believe or expect any human to "know God" any more than any other human. That's just not how it works. Though, I do think some humans are very insightful about some things, and so I am willing to consider their insights for relevant value. But I don't take them to be "messengers from God".

 

[firedragon]

If Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be, then Jesus is not coming back to earth.....

But since Jesus never ever promised to return, it would not matter even if Baha'u'llah was a fraud... Jesus still ain't coming back to earth, ever....

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Nobody except God really knows what the future holds, but if we believe in Baha'u'llah, there are some indications...

“The world is in travail, and its agitation waxeth day by day. Its face is turned towards waywardness and unbelief. Such shall be its plight, that to disclose it now would not be meet and seemly. Its perversity will long continue. And when the appointed hour is come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake. Then, and only then, will the Divine Standard be unfurled, and the Nightingale of Paradise warble its melody.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 118-119

Sorry to say this, but be a bit careful. People may invent old and new testament prophecies for the second coming of the messiah.

Oh but you may say they already have.

 

[cataway]

Hey there. You look troubled as if the weight of the world is upon your shoulders. Friend, do not be disheartened and know that when the chips are down and everyone abandons you, Jesus still loves you. He will carry the burden of your sins. For those who are oppressed Christ will ease your suffering. Do not be afraid or perturbed.

Many of us are familiar with such a narrative in Christianity where suffering has meaning and a remedy is offered to alleviate misery. How that kind of narrative resonates is the topic of this OP.

We all experience loss, pain and inevitably our own mortality. We all know first hand suffering exists. So if there really is a God, does that God truly care and what is God’s purpose in allowing suffering?

Do religions other than Christianity provide similar narrative or is the a substantial difference in perspective?

If there is no God, is there harm in finding comfort in stories like those in the Bible? What should be our best response as we inevitably face adversity?

I wonder if anyone ever realises that the most high God is not a servant of mankind

 

[sayak83]

The question of suffering in relation to the God of Abraham seems to be an important concern for atheists and your epicurus dilemma captures the problem nicely. Its all the more meaningful as you once were Christian but then found an alternative path. I've often heard Hindus say how a belief in reincarnation and karma can enable them to make sense of suffering. A belief in previous lives may account for particular tests and difficulties in this life, particularly one who has a disability.

Of course I am neither Christian nor Hindu. But whatever our belief, coming to terms with suffering is a central to any philosophy or theology.

For any entity in a world, he exists in each moment in one of two modes..
1) As an agent, when he acts on the world.
2) As a patient, when the world acts on him.
Suffering exists as a general condition because of this intrinsic duality. That there is a world with its own will and an agent with his own.. and these two wills is often at dissonance. This dissonance is felt as suffering by the agent.
The agents seeks to not suffer. So he makes efforts to that end. These efforts lead over time to spiritual growth and a growing alignment between the agent's will and that of the world. Thus suffering decreases .. and finally the agent and world become One as the ultimate Brahman.. when suffering ceases all together.

 

[wandering peacefully]

The question of suffering in relation to the God of Abraham seems to be an important concern for atheists

No, suffering is not an important concern for atheists as it relates to God. Atheists do not believe in God. The only concern of atheists is pointing out the contradiction of theists believing in an all loving God and the excuses they make up for the obvious fact of the suffering of humans. There are many different excuses depending on the brand of belief.

Atheists understand nature is cruel and often causes suffering. It's just another part of life. We don't make up excuses for why a loving god causes suffering.

We also understand it is our own responsibility to reduce our own suffering by understanding how nature and our minds work and accept suffering for the natural state that it is. We know we are responsible to take the steps to reduce the effects of suffering which all living beings experience.

 

[Trailblazer]

Sorry to say this, but be a bit careful. People may invent old and new testament prophecies for the second coming of the messiah.

Oh but you may say they already have.

What is written in scripture was revealed to prophets, not invented.

 

[Trailblazer]

I wonder if anyone ever realises that the most high God is not a servant of mankind

Of course God cannot be a servant of humans because the world and all that is in it is held firmly in the grasp of His Will.

 

[Dawnofhope]

No, suffering is not an important concern for atheists as it relates to God. Atheists do not believe in God. The only concern of atheists is pointing out the contradiction of theists believing in an all loving God and the excuses they make up for the obvious fact of the suffering of humans. There are many different excuses depending on the brand of belief.

Atheists understand nature is cruel and often causes suffering. It's just another part of life. We don't make up excuses for why a loving god causes suffering.

We also understand it is our own responsibility to reduce our own suffering by understanding how nature and our minds work and accept suffering for the natural state that it is. We know we are responsible to take the steps to reduce the effects of suffering which all living beings experience.

I suppose one reason I started this thread was the argument I often hear from atheists that a loving God and suffering are incompatible. I see no contradiction of course, rather a simplistic depiction of the God of Abraham used to create a straw man argument. However we agree that suffering is an inevitable part of life and at least some suffering we can alleviate through our own efforts.

 

[Dawnofhope]

For any entity in a world, he exists in each moment in one of two modes..
1) As an agent, when he acts on the world.
2) As a patient, when the world acts on him.
Suffering exists as a general condition because of this intrinsic duality. That there is a world with its own will and an agent with his own.. and these two wills is often at dissonance. This dissonance is felt as suffering by the agent.
The agents seeks to not suffer. So he makes efforts to that end. These efforts lead over time to spiritual growth and a growing alignment between the agent's will and that of the world. Thus suffering decreases .. and finally the agent and world become One as the ultimate Brahman.. when suffering ceases all together.

Thanks for your post. I enjoyed it. Good to see you back. I hope you are doing well.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I wonder if anyone ever realises that the most high God is not a servant of mankind

I’m sure most monotheists understand. It is a fundamental belief in Judaism, Christianity, Islam and the Baha’i Faith.

 

[firedragon]

What is written in scripture was revealed to prophets, not invented.

Which eschatological prophesy do you believe is revelation?

 

[CG Didymus]

What is written in scripture was revealed to prophets, not invented.

Which prophets wrote the New Testament? Then, in the Hebrew Bible, did the prophets write their own stories or did other people write the stories about the prophets?

 

[sayak83]

Thanks for your post. I enjoyed it. Good to see you back. I hope you are doing well.

Yes. I am a professor settled in India now. Been busy with the new job in a new city. But going to come more often now.
Thanks.

 

[Trailblazer]

Which eschatological prophesy do you believe is revelation?

I do not know what you mean.

 

[Trailblazer]

Which prophets wrote the New Testament? Then, in the Hebrew Bible, did the prophets write their own stories or did other people write the stories about the prophets?

No prophets wrote the New Testament.

In the Hebrew Bible, other people wrote the stories about the prophets.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I suppose one reason I started this thread was the argument I often hear from atheists that a loving God and suffering are incompatible.

It's one argument against Abrahamic religion, but not the only one... or even the most important.

I see no contradiction of course, rather a simplistic depiction of the God of Abraham used to create a straw man argument. However we agree that suffering is an inevitable part of life and at least some suffering we can alleviate through our own efforts.

IMO, the idea that suffering is inevitable is incompatible with the belief that Heaven exists and is free of suffering.

After all, if God has created a system without suffering that meets all of God's other requirements, then this implies that God can do this.

 

[sooda]

No, suffering is not an important concern for atheists as it relates to God. Atheists do not believe in God. The only concern of atheists is pointing out the contradiction of theists believing in an all loving God and the excuses they make up for the obvious fact of the suffering of humans. There are many different excuses depending on the brand of belief.

Atheists understand nature is cruel and often causes suffering. It's just another part of life. We don't make up excuses for why a loving god causes suffering.

We also understand it is our own responsibility to reduce our own suffering by understanding how nature and our minds work and accept suffering for the natural state that it is. We know we are responsible to take the steps to reduce the effects of suffering which all living beings experience.

There is a lesson in the collapse of the tower at Siloam. See Luke 13:4.

In the New Testament, the collapse of the Tower of Siloam is cited by Jesus as one of two examples where sudden, untimely death came to people who didn't necessarily deserve it more than most other sinful people.

 

[CG Didymus]

What is written in scripture was revealed to prophets, not invented.

Which prophets wrote the New Testament? Then, in the Hebrew Bible, did the prophets write their own stories or did other people write the stories about the prophets?

No prophets wrote the New Testament.

In the Hebrew Bible, other people wrote the stories about the prophets.

So then the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament were not necessarily written by anyone that got his information from God, like a prophet or the manifestation himself? Then, why do we trust that it wasn't "invented" or embellished by the writers?