If God exists, why does He allow suffering?

[Trailblazer]

IMO, the idea that suffering is inevitable is incompatible with the belief that Heaven exists and is free of suffering.

After all, if God has created a system without suffering that meets all of God's other requirements, then this implies that God can do this.

I do not see it as incompatible at all, since the heaven and earth are not the same.
Suffering is inevitable in a material world... because the material world is the SOURCE if all our suffering.

So the question to ask is why did God create a material world in which He knew there would be suffering.

It has never been about what God can do, it has always been about what God chooses to do.

God did not choose to create THIS world without suffering, because suffering serves a purpose in THIS world, to help is grow spiritually. This world is kind of like our initiation into the spiritual world, while at the same time it is preparation for the spiritual world, because this world is where we acquire our spiritual qualities that we will need in a purely spiritual world. By spiritual qualities I mean character. Without any suffering, we acquire no character, nor do we learn and grow.

“Men who suffer not, attain no perfection. The plant most pruned by the gardeners is that one which, when the summer comes, will have the most beautiful blossoms and the most abundant fruit.

The labourer cuts up the earth with his plough, and from that earth comes the rich and plentiful harvest. The more a man is chastened, the greater is the harvest of spiritual virtues shown forth by him.” Paris Talks, p. 51

 

[Trailblazer]

So then the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament were not necessarily written by anyone that got his information from God, like a prophet or the manifestation himself? Then, why do we trust that it wasn't "invented" or embellished by the writers?

We don't have to trust the writers, that is a choice.

It is a matter of faith since nobody can prove the Bible was revealed by God through the Holy Spirit.

Imo, the Bible was definitely embellished by the writers.... How much of it was embellished and how much it was embellished we cannot ever know so I see no point talking about it year after year..

 

[CG Didymus]

We also understand it is our own responsibility to reduce our own suffering by understanding how nature and our minds work and accept suffering for the natural state that it is. We know we are responsible to take the steps to reduce the effects of suffering which all living beings experience.

I often hear from atheists that a loving God and suffering are incompatible. I see no contradiction of course, rather a simplistic depiction of the God of Abraham used to create a straw man argument. However we agree that suffering is an inevitable part of life and at least some suffering we can alleviate through our own efforts.

Some Christians say that pain and suffering came into a perfect world because Adam and Eve sinned... then God cursed them, the serpent and the Earth. What do Baha'is say about how pain and suffering came into the world?

Then, as a doctor, what do think about diseases? The body fights off microscopic invaders the best it can, but, eventually the body loses the battle. Why disease? Why, if God did create all this, why things that can harm and kill the body? Like how many people got sick and died through the centuries from infections? You know more than me about what people go through. It seems like a war. And many people lost their lives in the battle. What was the "spiritual' lesson they learned? Especially a little kid? Did they get comfort knowing that Jesus was waiting on the other side? Or, that this life is just one of many... and they will be reborn into a better situation? But, how true are all those things they are taught to believe. They are just beliefs people hold. But those beliefs are not what Baha'is believe, so those people didn't learn anything spiritually that is true. And that leads to the next post in my list here...

IMO, the idea that suffering is inevitable is incompatible with the belief that Heaven exists and is free of suffering.

After all, if God has created a system without suffering that meets all of God's other requirements, then this implies that God can do this.

Supposedly, God only tortures the physical body. When it dies, then the spirit that was in that body goes to some spiritual world where there is no pain and suffering. So how does that soul continue to progress with no suffering? Why was it so necessary to make the body that the soul was put into to suffer? But the biggest problem is how random it all seems. Almost like there is no Loving-God, but an uncaring evil master that demands obedience or else he will torture those that don't believe... and test the ones that do believe by using the same things to make them suffer too.

 

[MonkeyFire]

You got to give the demon of suffering some release, and by not letting it exist entirely you have done wrong. The first noble truth is all things without exception suffer.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Some Christians say that pain and suffering came into a perfect world because Adam and Eve sinned... then God cursed them, the serpent and the Earth. What do Baha'is say about how pain and suffering came into the world?

As explained to another earlier in this thread

There are many things that could be said about suffering from a Baha’i perspective. It is clear that suffering is an inevitable part of our lives. We will all experience loss, will become sick, be hurt by others and eventually our physical bodies will die. We will most likely experience many tests and difficulties. Some of these will also be a result of our own actions or inactions and at other times because of others. However our fundamental purpose in this world is a spiritual one where we should come to draw closer to God. Suffering can enable us to grow and develop spirituality.

I thought you might be interested in this link that explores the theme a little more.

Suffering and the Problem of Evil

Then, as a doctor, what do think about diseases? The body fights off microscopic invaders the best it can, but, eventually the body loses the battle. Why disease? Why, if God did create all this, why things that can harm and kill the body? Like how many people got sick and died through the centuries from infections? You know more than me about what people go through. It seems like a war. And many people lost their lives in the battle. What was the "spiritual' lesson they learned? Especially a little kid? Did they get comfort knowing that Jesus was waiting on the other side? Or, that this life is just one of many... and they will be reborn into a better situation? But, how true are all those things they are taught to believe. They are just beliefs people hold. But those beliefs are not what Baha'is believe, so those people didn't learn anything spiritually that is true. And that leads to the next post in my list here...

Many of the Baha’i Writings speak about not getting attached to this life. We are here for such a short time in relation to eternity. It is our spiritual life we need to be more concerned about, not this fleeting mortal existence.

 

[Trailblazer]

Many of the Baha’i Writings speak about not getting attached to this life. We are here for such a short time in relation to eternity. It is our spiritual life we need to be more concerned about, not this fleeting mortal existence.

Well said.

 

[CG Didymus]

Many of the Baha’i Writings speak about not getting attached to this life. We are here for such a short time in relation to eternity. It is our spiritual life we need to be more concerned about, not this fleeting mortal existence.

Yeah, it's hard to get attached to this life when a baby or young child dies of a disease. Who made those microbes? Who made the "natural", "acts of God" disasters? Do you try and provide for your family and make plans for the future? Do you put away money for a "rainy day"? Do you try and avoid getting diseases? Do you try and avoid accidents and dangerous situations? Then you're somewhat attached... and I don't blame you.

But, I also know some Christians and Baha'is that gave up everything to go be pioneers or missionaries in far off places. I don't think most people are even at that level of being "unattached" and wanting to selflessly serve their religion. And one problem, the Christian think Baha'is are doing it for a false religion. And Baha'is believe the Christians are out there teaching false beliefs. So some "unattached" selfless people gave up everything to teach things that aren't true.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yeah, it's hard to get attached to this life when a baby or young child dies of a disease. Who made those microbes? Who made the "natural", "acts of God" disasters? Do you try and provide for your family and make plans for the future? Do you put away money for a "rainy day"? Do you try and avoid getting diseases? Do you try and avoid accidents and dangerous situations? Then you're somewhat attached... and I don't blame you.

Everyone is somewhat attached because we all have to live in this world, but the less we have the less we have to be attached to. I have a lot of investments and real estate and money and material things but I am not attached to all of those things. When the market dropped in 2002 and 2008 I barely batted an eyelash because I did not care. I have a tenant who had a longstanding rent debt of thousands of dollars but I have let it slide.for now because I believe he will pay it eventually, since he has been in the house for seven years now. But if he does not pay it I will probably let it go, because there is really nothing I can do about it now.

I do not care about material things or things of the flesh and I derive no enjoyment from them. What really matters to me are living things, people and animals..I admit that I am very much attached to our ten cats so what causes me the most grief in this life is when I lose them through disease and death, which is inevitable.

I will tell you a little story since you like to talk about Bahais and some of their shortcomings. The reason I started posting on forums is because of something I read on the internet in January 2013 when I was searching for something. At that time, I did not know anything about internet forums. What I read was some Baha'i telling another Baha'i that if she was more detached she would not have so much grief about losing her cat. What a cruel and judgmental thing to say to a person who was grieving, and what an arrogant thing to say, because he was saying "if you were more detached like me, and someday you will be....." That comment led me to the Planet Baha'i forum and the rest is history. The Baha'is on that forum were very kind and compassionate, and knowledgeable, and that is where I started my long journey back to the Faith.

I do not see being careful as being attached, I see it as being prudent. There is no good reason to seek out suffering. as there is enough of it already. at least for some of us.

Being detached is simply a matter of accepting whatever comes our way, knowing that this material world is not forever. Everyone has things that matter to them, and when we lose them those are the tests of how detached we are. I do not view loving and caring about people or animals as being attached to this world..

 

[CG Didymus]

Being detached is simply a matter of accepting whatever comes our way, knowing that this material world is not forever.

If I were a Hindu, I could be detached from the world knowing that I will finally be released from the birth/death cycle of reincarnation. But, according to Baha'is, that is not a true belief. If I were a Christian, I could be detached knowing that Jesus has a place for me in heaven. But you know all the other things that go along with believing in Jesus. So another false bunch of beliefs. So, believing in things that aren't true can give people peace of mind about worry and the stress of life. So now what do Baha'is do? Do they tell the Hindu and Christian that some of the things they believe, things that give them comfort, are wrong? Yes, it does happen. They tell the Hindu there is no reincarnation. They tell the Christian their Lord and Savior is dead.

And many religions do that to the Baha'is. Baha'is have peace in knowing that they are going to a better place, and then a Born-Again Christian comes along and tells them that they are going to hell when they die. That kind of fits in this thread about suffering, because religions can put mental anguish on people.

 

[Trailblazer]

If I were a Hindu, I could be detached from the world knowing that I will finally be released from the birth/death cycle of reincarnation. But, according to Baha'is, that is not a true belief. If I were a Christian, I could be detached knowing that Jesus has a place for me in heaven. But you know all the other things that go along with believing in Jesus. So another false bunch of beliefs. So, believing in things that aren't true can give people peace of mind about worry and the stress of life. So now what do Baha'is do? Do they tell the Hindu and Christian that some of the things they believe, things that give them comfort, are wrong? Yes, it does happen. They tell the Hindu there is no reincarnation. They tell the Christian their Lord and Savior is dead.

And many religions do that to the Baha'is. Baha'is have peace in knowing that they are going to a better place, and then a Born-Again Christian comes along and tells them that they are going to hell when they die. That kind of fits in this thread about suffering, because religions can put mental anguish on people.

Good points, but what do you believe is the solution to everyone having different beliefs about the afterlife, or is there a solution, or does it really matter? What will happen after we die will happen, and then we will find out what the reality is. Of course I believe that the Baha'i Faith is the closest approximation to that reality, all believers believe their religion is the truth, even if they don't have the absolute certitude I have.

But just knowing we are going to a 'better place' eventually is no panacea, because we still have to live in this world till we die.

 

[ManSinha]

Of course I believe that the Baha'i Faith is the closest approximation to that reality, all believers believe their religion is the truth, even if they don't have the absolute certitude I have.

Just where do you come off making a statement like that Susan @Trailblazer - that is more arrogant and self serving than some of the fantastical claims you make and then run away from

You have loudly proclaimed that no one knows what is in your mind and heart - then how come you purport to have more or less certitude than others - I can give you examples that would make your blood run cold - individuals that stood up under extreme physical torture - to stand up for their beliefs. Can you claim you would do as well? I sincerely doubt it

 

[Trailblazer]

Just where do you come off making a statement like that Susan @Trailblazer - that is more arrogant and self serving than some of the fantastical claims you make and then run away from.

There is nothing arrogant or self-serving about saying I have certitude of my beliefs.

I do not make claims. Baha'u'llah made claims. I just believe His claims.

You have loudly proclaimed that no one knows what is in your mind and heart - then how come you purport to have more or less certitude than others - I can give you examples that would make your blood run cold - individuals that stood up under extreme physical torture - to stand up for their beliefs. Can you claim you would do as well? I sincerely doubt it.

I said: "all believers believe their religion is the truth, even if they don't have the absolute certitude I have."
I did not say that no believers have the same certitude I have. Maybe they have more. Only God knows.

I cannot know what I would do unless faced with the situation.

 

[ManSinha]

Of course I believe that the Baha'i Faith is the closest approximation to that reality, all believers believe their religion is the truth, even if they don't have the absolute certitude I have.

I said: "all believers believe their religion is the truth, even if they don't have the absolute certitude I have."

That is right! You implied you have more or a greater certitude than others, absolute or otherwise - that is an arrogant and vain statement which is untrue - because neither can be quantified. What makes you think others do not have absolute certitude and how would you quantify "absolute"?

 

[CG Didymus]

what do you believe is the solution to everyone having different beliefs about the afterlife, or is there a solution

The solution would have to come from God. No middleman. He'd have to show himself and say this is who I am and this is where you're all going. By sending multiple messengers that, for me, say contradictory things doesn't give me confidence in any of their messages. Which kind of makes lean toward believing people made up way too much of the things about God. The Baha'i Faith has some good explanation and beliefs, but, for me, it has things I don't believe. So, right now, I don't trust that it is the truth either. And so, I ask a bunch of hard questions that get you Baha'is unset sometimes.

 

[Trailblazer]

That is right! You implied you have more or a greater certitude than others, absolute or otherwise - that is an arrogant and vain statement which is untrue - because neither can be quantified. What makes you think others do not have absolute certitude and how would you quantify "absolute"?

Words matter....

I said: "even if they don't have the absolute certitude I have."
That was a conditional statement - If.

I did not say "even though they don't have the absolute certitude I have."
To say "even though" would be arrogant because I cannot know anyone's level of certitude.

I have no way of knowing how much certitude other believers have unless they tell me.
Absolute certitude means one has no doubt that their beliefs are true.

 

[Trailblazer]

The solution would have to come from God. No middleman. He'd have to show himself and say this is who I am and this is where you're all going. By sending multiple messengers that, for me, say contradictory things doesn't give me confidence in any of their messages. Which kind of makes lean toward believing people made up way too much of the things about God. The Baha'i Faith has some good explanation and beliefs, but, for me, it has things I don't believe. So, right now, I don't trust that it is the truth either. And so, I ask a bunch of hard questions that get you Baha'is unset sometimes.

I guess you are saying that to convince you, it would have to come from God Himself...
But God cannot show Himself because God is beyond anything that can ever be recounted or perceived.

The next best thing would be for God to make His testimony through Baha'u'llah clear to all men in some way. I believe that is what will happen eventually although probably not in your lifetime.

“Warn and acquaint the people, O Servant, with the things We have sent down unto Thee, and let the fear of no one dismay Thee, and be Thou not of them that waver. The day is approaching when God will have exalted His Cause and magnified His testimony in the eyes of all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 248

 

[ManSinha]

I did not say "even though they don't have the absolute certitude I have."

You need to go back to the basics of english grammar - "even though" is a conditional statement as well

But you have always tried to hide behind deception ergo

"I have evidence but not proof"

as if there is a material difference between the two - if there is - please explain in reasonably understood terms

I cannot know what I would do unless faced with the situation.

That is a lame cop-out if I ever saw one - are you saying you lack an imagination and the ability to reason?

The next best thing would be for God to make His testimony through Baha'u'llah clear to all men in some way

The Divine has made the message clear - through the Geeta and the Guru Granth - Baha'u'llah and his failed recycling of established Abrahamic ways is not needed - IMO

 

[CG Didymus]

But God cannot show Himself because God is beyond anything that can ever be recounted or perceived.

Not that my experiences were real, but I have "felt" God's presence. Only problem is that each time I had a different concept of who and what God was. One time I was in the mountains by a river and the physical reality dissolved into a spiritual reality. At the time I believed that this world was an illusion from having read books by Indian gurus. Another belief is that God is within and everything is part of God. We just have to let go and realize it. So just because some people believe that God is so far above us He can't ever be perceived by us, I don't think is true. That power and light sure seemed real to me. But, because I had different beliefs about spiritual reality each time, I could see how it was an imagined connection to some spiritual reality.

But then, who else's spiritual experiences were just imagined? And then add in a few embellished stories, a few stories about miracles, and then if the person is very charismatic, then... you got the makings of a person that could start a new religion.

 

[CG Didymus]

The Divine has made the message clear - through the Geeta and the Guru Granth - Baha'u'llah and his failed recycling of established Abrahamic ways is not needed - IMO

When I first learned of Baha'is, I had never heard of Sikhs. Now that I know a little about your religion, I wonder why it is rarely mentioned by Baha'is? My problem is that if Baha'is say all religions are one, how can they not include all religions? They only seem concerned about the "major" religions (and even with that, there is very little about Hinduism and Buddhism). And any religion that can be placed within another religion as a sect, or a reform movement within that other religion, they don't count?

But, besides that issue, what do Sikhs believe about why we have pain and suffering in this life?

Actually, now that I think about it, why am I the one showing more respect for your religion than the Baha'is? Something is wrong with that. Come on Baha'is, some of you here have chased away Hindus, Buddhists, and I'm sure Christians, Jews and Moslems... and Sikhs? Show some love and respect for the other religions and it will go a long way to get me, and I'm sure them, to show you some more respect. The world ain't going to be one until this happens, right? Isn't that what Baha'is believe? One people please? Abolish all religious prejudice? Isn't that what Baha'is believe and teach?

 

[Trailblazer]

Not that my experiences were real, but I have "felt" God's presence. Only problem is that each time I had a different concept of who and what God was. One time I was in the mountains by a river and the physical reality dissolved into a spiritual reality. At the time I believed that this world was an illusion from having read books by Indian gurus. Another belief is that God is within and everything is part of God. We just have to let go and realize it. So just because some people believe that God is so far above us He can't ever be perceived by us, I don't think is true. That power and light sure seemed real to me. But, because I had different beliefs about spiritual reality each time, I could see how it was an imagined connection to some spiritual reality.

But then, who else's spiritual experiences were just imagined? And then add in a few embellished stories, a few stories about miracles, and then if the person is very charismatic, then... you got the makings of a person that could start a new religion.

When I said God cannot show Himself, I,meant that God cannot materialize on earth -- God cannot show up so we can see Him with our own eyes. But that does not mean that we cannot feel God's presence, for God is said to be omnipresent, although we cannot understand how that is possible, since we are not God.

The problem that presents itself of course is that we cannot know if we are experiencing God or if it is something else we are experiencing. It might seem very real to us but it might not be God but rather just a spiritual experience.