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Featured If animals can talk to each other, then why can't they pray to God ?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by chinu, Dec 6, 2020.

  1. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    But can they really, or are they just going by their instincts (by program), without conscious mind?
     
  2. JustGeorge

    JustGeorge Well-Known Member
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    We had an incident with two cats, Kore and Troy, that was interesting. Troy was known for peeing in the corner in the dining room(we would catch him in the act). If he did this, he got a one way ticket into the bathroom(where a litter box, and other 'cat needs' were) for the day and night. He stopped the behavior. He got free run 24/7 again.

    Kore doesn't like Troy. Shortly after the behavior stopped, it started again. We didn't see anyone pee in that corner, but when the pile of urine reappeared, we naturally assumed Troy. Back in the bathroom. Each time we let him back out, the urine would appear. And then one day, we caught her. Kore was peeing in the spot, with the intent of 'framing' Troy, so he would have to go to the bathroom and she wouldn't have to deal with him.

    Kore went to the bathroom that time. It stopped.
     
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  3. Wild Fox

    Wild Fox Well-Known Member

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    The fascinating thing about humans is we think we are so smart and superior but we are not smarter than nature. So we destroy everything that supports our life. Yes there some of us how have started to understand but there has not been enough to save our planet yet.
     
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  4. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    I've said it before, we need a tongue-in-cheek emoji.
     
  5. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    Because whilst they're intelligent enough to speak, they're as confused af by the Trinity doctrine.

    *Nods solemnly*
     
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  6. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Good question. I guess the first thing that would make this hard to know would be determining whether or not they were even aware of God.
     
  7. Wild Fox

    Wild Fox Well-Known Member

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    If god is real why wouldn't they?
     
  8. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium Advaita Vedantin
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    For the same reason you wouldn't be aware of something you haven't had opportunity to experience.
     
  9. Mock Turtle

    Mock Turtle Silent Generation - so don't expect much
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    For all those who seem to think that any non-human animals might have any concepts of God or anything similar, and hence some behaviour related to prayer, please explain the process by which this occurs, since it does seem to be quite a leap from many other behaviours and beliefs we humans seem to have in common with other life forms.
     
  10. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium Advaita Vedantin
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    Before we head down that road, what behaviors definitively, exclusively, and exhaustively demonstrate prayer in humans?
     
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  11. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I don't know. I suppose it's possible. After all, I have a tremendous love for all animals and I find them to be very amazing. Maybe they do have a sense of connection with their Creator and communicate with Him. I wouldn't entirely discount the possibility.
     
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  12. Mock Turtle

    Mock Turtle Silent Generation - so don't expect much
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    I wouldn't be the one to answer that, given that I haven't done so since a child, and I'm not even sure I did so then. :oops:

    But I assume prayer commonly means asking for some outcome, whether for oneself, for others, or for a change in some particular matter. I'm sure it might mean many other things though. It seems to me that what some seem to mean here is that a non-human animal does recognise some greater power, and perhaps having some control over their lives, such that they recognise their subordinancy and beg for something just as humans might. I would like to know how this might occur.
     
  13. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium Advaita Vedantin
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    Can these actions be measured? What outward evidence is there that someone is praying?

    And someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but prayer isn't exclusively made to solicit of a higher power to which one is subordinate.
     
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  14. JustGeorge

    JustGeorge Well-Known Member
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    I think that 'prayer in order to get something' gets too much recognition, while prayer for general worship/appreciation/reflection seems to be unheard of outside of religious crowds.

    You read of studies done to measure the effects of 'prayer to get stuff'. Maybe it would be nice to see a study done on the effects of worshipful prayer/appreciative prayer/reflective prayer on the individual.
     
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  15. Mock Turtle

    Mock Turtle Silent Generation - so don't expect much
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    People usually tell us that they are praying or have prayed. Not sure any other animals have spoken up yet as to this effect. And not sure there is any purpose in prayer other than to some entity that might effect what one prays for, apart from how such affects the one who prays - but that is mostly incidental, surely? If it isn't to such then surely it isn't prayer?
     
  16. DKH

    DKH Member

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    There is no need for animals to pray to God, because God communicates with them. This is shown in Genesis 7:8-9. Where, Noah didn't gather the animals, they were sent to him by God…Also, in 1 Kings 17:1-6, God feeds Elijah through ravens. Now, this doesn't mean that God is in regular interactions with animals, but it shows that communications did occur…Maybe, more than we realize and what is actually recorded or what we want to believe!

    In Ps. 150:6 it is recorded that even the animals should be giving praise to God. Animals are as much the product of God’s creative power as any other part of His creation and are a living display of the natural beauty God has allowed to be built into creation.

    So, the truth is that animals may have a more acute awareness of spiritual reality than we realize! The recordings in Num. 22:21-33 gives credence to this point and the covenant, related to the flood, was also addressed to animals, thus all living flesh (in Gen. 9:11-17).
     
  17. Wild Fox

    Wild Fox Well-Known Member

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    That is a wonderful attitude to have, but the creator is Her not Him
     
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  18. Wild Fox

    Wild Fox Well-Known Member

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    But you do not know what they experience unless god is made up by humans and not real then they would not be aware. If the experience of a god like force is the product the neurological processes needed to be social organisms then they may. And yes there are interesting observations that are suggestive of the latter from recent animal behavior studies in the wild.
     
  19. Mock Turtle

    Mock Turtle Silent Generation - so don't expect much
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    If we looked at our closest relatives, other primates, as an example, and being the most likely perhaps to have anything remotely like a concept of a deity, one can see that they will likely know that other living things are more powerful than themselves, especially in any social groupings where an alpha male (or female) is dominant, or just on sheer size, but it seems to me that there is a giant leap to make in assigning control/omnipotency to something else. They might fear all the forces of nature that could upset their lives or destroy them, just as they might fear those living beings that might do so too (any likely predators), but assigning agency to the former I think is a conceptual step too far. And it might be an even bigger step to think that such forces/deity/whatever had a means of affecting their lives, such that some special pleading (or even reverence) might achieve what they desired. It seems possible and even probable that early humans assigned agency to the various forces in their environment, but they at least had some control of some of these - like fire, and tool-making, for example - so as to have some advantage. Tool use has been seen in many non-humans, and planning, but not so much else.

    So although I'm not dogmatic in not believing non-humans might have any concepts of a deity or similar, it just seems improbable, and I await any reasonable evidence for such.
     
  20. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium Advaita Vedantin
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    People can tell us they they are praying or have prayed. This doesn't mean that they do. I am pretty confident that there are people that pray that don't share the fact that they pray. Does that mean, in your view, that they don't pray?

    @JustGeorge already pointed out some other purposes for prayer than what you appear to be familiar with when she said...
    There are those that pray for the purpose of devotion, love, and connection to the divine. As @JustGeorge said, prayer isn't always about getting stuff and it's not always about getting some supreme being to affect change.
     
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