I need to be a nonbeliever to set myself free. Could someone help me?

[The Transcended Omniverse]

These, to me, are the words of a very immature person. Can I ask how old you are?
"Me-ism" is what is killing the world. Who do you know that is living a wonderful trouble free life? Even those who have it all materially, worry about an economic downturn where they could lose everything they have. The wealthiest people are not the happiest....it is the spiritual people who have the most joy. Materialism is empty.



There is no "hell"...that concept was invented by the church to keep the ignorant masses in check.
The Bible's "hell" (sheol, hades) is man's common grave....nothing more. There is no one alive in there. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10)



"So listen up God...these are the terms of my life and nothing less will be acceptable...OK" Very mature.

Do you even want to know how wrong you are about this "hell" you speak of? "It's all God's fault" is a winey reply from someone who has never considered the options. Learn what the Bible says, not what religion teaches.



Again, do you want to know how wrong you are about this "hell" hangup of yours?

Can I ask that you please read through your post and observe how many contradictions you have made including those in your OP? You don't want a debate at all......you just want someone to tell you how to have your cake and eat it too. Sorry, that is a fantasy worthy of Walt Disney.

When you want to get into a real debate and to consider the possibilities......just let me know.

I am 28 years old. But being immature doesn't mean that you have no desire to help others and are self dedicated to your own personal way of living. I see plenty of kind and mature people living like that. They tell me that they want to set their own goals and expectations and not have some condemning God do that in their lives. I see that as a very mature attitude and very self empowering.

But if there was some condemning person or God in their lives imposing on their way of life and demanding obedience, then for them to get angry would not make them immature. They have every right to be angry. These people simply wish to be left alone and live as they want. How does that make them immature?

 

[Deeje]

Interesting.

In what way?

 

[SomeRandom]

In what way?

I guess because the belief in an eternal Hell is so intertwined with the varying Christian sects (and Catholicism) for me. It's a little hard to disentangle them now, because of my exposure to them.
I have always felt that the Hell belief structure was not necessarily congruent with Jesus' teachings and relied far too heavily on fear in order to control people.

 

[Shia Islam]

I am completely undecided when it comes to the existence of God and the afterlife.

Just make sure that you are really "completely undecided". The starting point is to study you current state..

 

[Deeje]

I am 28 years old. But being immature doesn't mean that you have no desire to help others and are self dedicated to your own personal way of living. I see plenty of kind and mature people living like that. They tell me that they want to set their own goals and expectations and not have some condemning God do that in their lives. I see that as a very mature attitude and very self empowering.

Go back to Eden and tell me who had that attitude and where it got them.....I see nothing in your posts except whining about the fact that you can't have what you want. We are all created with the same desire....to live a peaceful and happy life in security with the ones we love. This is what life was meant to be like, (we know that in our own hearts) and if our first parents had not disobeyed one simple command back in the beginning, that would be the life we would be living right now. There was no condemning God, no heaven or hell, no endless list of rules, no aging, sickness or death and no knowledge of evil and paradise surroundings with everything a human could ever want.....sounds pretty good to me.

But if there was some condemning person or God in their lives imposing on their way of life and demanding obedience, then for them to get angry would not make them immature. They have every right to be angry. These people simply wish to be left alone and live as they want. How does that make them immature?

I wish I could help you understand that what you want is very achievable, because that is where everything will go back to once God has sorted out the abuse of free will that took place in the garden. Issues were raised there that could not be ignored. Rebellion is what overtook the human race and it had to be dealt with in a way that would prove that God was right, not just more powerful.

You are so hung up on this "condemning God" and yet if you were to study the scriptures, you will find him to be the exact opposite of what you believe him to be. Jesus was a perfect reflection of his Father. Did you find him to be overbearing, condemning or a killjoy?

Wanting to set your own goals and expectations is fine but unless those goals and expectation are in line with what the Creator approves, he will not allow you citizenship in his kingdom. Anyone who desires to live anywhere in the world is under obligation to abide by the laws of the land in which they seek residence. No one is permitted to break the laws and expect to stay a resident in good standing...deportation will not be far away. Please don't tell me that you expect God to do any less.

 

[Deeje]

I guess because the belief in an eternal Hell is so intertwined with the varying Christian sects (and Catholicism) for me. It's a little hard to disentangle them now, because of my exposure to them.
I have always felt that the Hell belief structure was not necessarily congruent with Jesus' teachings and relied far too heavily on fear in order to control people.

Bingo!

Its a hard concept to get out of your mind, but if you go back to the beginning, you will find no 'heaven or hell' scenario given to Adam and his wife. The penalty for disobedience was death and a return to the dust from which they were created...nothing more.

Inventing a hell of torment or torture after death required belief in an an afterlife...yet the Bible does not teach that either.

You would be amazed at how many beliefs introduced by Catholicism find no basis in scripture, but lots of similarities with pagan religions. We can discuss that if you'd like to start another thread. Its a fascinating topic.....

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

Go back to Eden and tell me who had that attitude and where it got them.....I see nothing in your posts except whining about the fact that you can't have what you want. We are all created with the same desire....to live a peaceful and happy life in security with the ones we love. This is what life was meant to be like, (we know that in our own hearts) and if our first parents had not disobeyed one simple command back in the beginning, that would be the life we would be living right now. There was no condemning God, no heaven or hell, no endless list of rules, no aging, sickness or death and no knowledge of evil and paradise surroundings with everything a human could ever want.....sounds pretty good to me.



I wish I could help you understand that what you want is very achievable, because that is where everything will go back to once God has sorted out the abuse of free will that took place in the garden. Issues were raised there that could not be ignored. Rebellion is what overtook the human race and it had to be dealt with in a way that would prove that God was right, not just more powerful.

You are so hung up on this "condemning God" and yet if you were to study the scriptures, you will find him to be the exact opposite of what you believe him to be. Jesus was a perfect reflection of his Father. Did you find him to be overbearing, condemning or a killjoy?

Wanting to set your own goals and expectations is fine but unless those goals and expectation are in line with what the Creator approves, he will not allow you citizenship in his kingdom. Anyone who desires to live anywhere in the world is under obligation to abide by the laws of the land in which they seek residence. No one is permitted to break the laws and expect to stay a resident in good standing...deportation will not be far away. Please don't tell me that you expect God to do any less.

If the only rule was to not harm and torture other innocent people, then I would have no problem. But there are so many upon many listed sins that one is expected to avoid. This God sees every little thing as sin and unless you repent and confess these sins, you will not make it to heaven.

 

[Deeje]

If the only rule was to not harm and torture other innocent people, then I would have no problem. But there are so many upon many listed sins that one is expected to avoid. This God sees every little thing as sin and unless you repent and confess these sins, you will not make it to heaven.

Make me a list of these supposed rules and we will discuss them rationally and empathetically...OK?

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

Make me a list of these supposed rules and we will discuss them rationally and empathetically...OK?

Here, there is more where that came from:

http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/40SinsThatWillSendYouToHell.html

 

[Deeje]

Here, there is more where that came from:

http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/40SinsThatWillSendYouToHell.html

OMG!!!! What on earth motivated you to go there? First we have to put the whole "hell" thing to rest.

We can do that first up. Give me some time to go get dinner (I am in Australia) and I will be back in a while to address this important issue.

Also, if you can go through that list, and pick out any that you feel disqualify you from salvation?....obviously I cannot address all of them at once, but if you'd like to post some that are a real bother to you, we can start there....

I'll be back......

 

[Deeje]

Right....let's get down to it. What is the Bible's "hell"

Concerning this use of “hell” to translate the original words from the Hebrew (sheol) and Greek, (haded) Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (1981, Vol. 2, p. 187) says: “HADES . . . corresponds to ‘Sheol’ in the O.T. In the A.V. of the O.T. and N.T, it has been unhappily rendered ‘Hell.’”

Collier’s Encyclopedia (1986, Vol. 12, p. 28) says concerning “Hell”: “First it stands for the Hebrew Sheol of the Old Testament and the Greek Hades of the Septuagint and New Testament. Since Sheol in Old Testament times referred simply to the abode of the dead and suggested no moral distinctions, the word ‘hell,’ as understood today, is not a happy translation.”

It is because of the way that the word “hell” is understood today in Christendom, that it is such an unsatisfactory translation of these original Bible words.
Webster’s Third New International Dictionary, unabridged, under “Hell” says: “from . . . helan to conceal.”
The word “hell” thus originally conveyed no thought of heat or torment but simply of a ‘covered over or concealed place.’
In the old English dialect the expression “helling potatoes” meant, not to roast them, but simply to place the potatoes in the ground or in a cellar.

The meaning given today to the word “hell” is that portrayed in Dante’s Divine Comedy and Milton’s Paradise Lost, which meaning is completely foreign to the original definition of the word.

The idea of a “hell” of fiery torment, dates back long before Dante or Milton. The Grolier Universal Encyclopedia (1971, Vol. 9, p. 205) under “Hell” says: “Hindus and Buddhists regard hell as a place of spiritual cleansing and final restoration. Islamic tradition considers it as a place of everlasting punishment.” The idea of suffering after death is found among the pagan religious teachings of ancient peoples in Babylon and Egypt. Babylonian and Assyrian beliefs depicted the “nether world . . . as a place full of horrors, . . . presided over by gods and demons of great strength and fierceness.”

Although ancient Egyptian religious texts do not teach that the burning of any individual victim would go on forever, they do portray the “Other World” as featuring “pits of fire” for “the damned.” So the idea of a burning hell is found in paganism, but never taught in Christianity.

“Hellfire” has been a basic teaching in Christendom for many centuries. It is understandable why The Encyclopedia Americana (1956, Vol. XIV, p. 81) said: “Much confusion and misunderstanding has been caused through the early translators of the Bible persistently rendering the Hebrew Sheol and the Greek Hades and Gehenna by the word hell. The simple transliteration of these words by the translators of the revised editions of the Bible has not sufficed to appreciably clear up this confusion and misconception.”(Excerpts from Insight Volumes WTBTS)

So you see "hell" is not a place of fiery torment and never was. Even the word from which it was translated only mean a place of concealment. The Jews did not believe in such a place as the scriptures state....

Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10: "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten.".....
"Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave [sheol], where you are going."

So "sheol" and its Greek equivalent "hades" never meant anything but the common grave...There is no conscious existence in that place, so how did Christendom get the idea of a burning hell from the word "gehenna" which is also translated as "hell" in many Bibles?

"Gehenna", to a Jew was the Valley of Hinnom, which was outside the walls of Jerusalem where the city's garbage was dumped. Along with the refuse were the carcasses of dead animals and the bodies of executed criminals, who were not considered worthy of a decent burial. Fires were kept burning day and night so as to consume the refuse....what the flames missed, the maggots finished off.
To a Jew, this meant no burial tomb with the person's name and family lineage inscribed on it. This carried the idea of God not remembering them in the foretold resurrection under Messiah's rule. There was no thought of eternal torment...only eternal death. Since Jews did not have a belief in a conscious afterlife from their scriptures, there is no way that Jesus was advocating a hell of eternal torment....only a place from which no one returned.

The only thing that humans who disobey God have to fear is non existence. Just as God told Adam....
"In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return." (Genesis 3:19)

 

[Segev Moran]

I am completely undecided when it comes to the existence of God and the afterlife.

I'll start with saying that's a good thing.

I see nothing more than an ongoing debate of various religious and secular views. Many different people have many different answers. Some people are materialists who think that once you die, that is it. Some think that there is a God out there watching and judging you.

Indeed, there are millions of ideas and interpretations to every belief and concept.

But I see no definite answer here. So that means I am open to all the various views of the afterlife and God. This means I am, unfortunately, open to the possibility of Christianity being true. This is a most hated religion to me that I wish to not be open to at all as a possibility. That way, I won't have to worry about going to hell over every little thing I do wrong in this God's eyes.

It seems you have an understanding about what Hell is.. Do you have an understanding of what after life means to you?
Try to ignore for a second all the ideas you know, and try to find an answer of what an after life is to you. be objective. don't let your wishful thinking affect your decision yet.

I detest Christianity so much because the Christian God is no way to develop a personal spiritual relationship with anybody. Someone who judges your way of life you like to enjoy as sinful is a sure way to turn someone off and reject you. That is no way to make friends. That will only make enemies. But a God who supports your way of life and is completely cool with you having parties, sex, etc. would be the most awesome God of all.

Lol.. sounds like you already know the God you want to have

I have no desire whatsoever to live for others or to serve anybody.

Than don't!

This would be a personal God meant for me who is completely fine with me being the judge of myself and my own way of life. He would allow me to set my own personal goals and expectations rather than expecting and demanding me to meet his commands. Therefore, the best bet is for me to either become a full materialist where I don't believe in any God at all, or to somehow believe in this personal God I have created.

I am going to let you in on a secret... All Gods are a personal God!
but shhh... don't let those who believe in a God hear about it..
You can do a very short test to understand what i mean...
Take 50 people and ask them about their God. try to be diverse in religion and not pick one religion rather several.
You'll soon find out that each person have it's own definition of what God is and isn't.
In my case, BTW, God is something people invent to find meaning to their lives, causing them to neglect the true meaning of life they should look for.

I am not sure any argument presented will convince me since there will always be other people with their arguments.

I Can tell you what I'm doing and how I came to be an Atheist.
I Just started learning for my self.
I Didn't take anyone's word for anything.
Big bang? Evolution? Flat earth? Aliens? Elvis is alive?
There are countless ideas, theories and possibilities.
So until you really learn a subject for yourself, Don't make a decision!
Evolution for example, which is one of the greatest debates creationists have, have a lot of counter arguments.
I Have studied (And still am) about the evolution process. I learn the actual theory, I try and understand how things might occur based on what evolution suggests.
Today, It is not a question of whether Evolution is true or not, There is no doubt that it is true. there are however, many open questions about how the evolution mechanism takes its course.
So I started learning about DNA, what is it? how can I see it in my own eyes? whats the structure of it and how it was discovered?
So the short answer is: LEARN! STUDY and question everything!
I am pretty convinced, that if you study sciences to depth, you'll come to the conclusion that God is not a reality. You'll come to understand that there are amazing things we don't yet understand, but as it seems, none of them is super natural!
Trust your senses... Don't trust other people's ideas, ask questions, criticize and try to find answers on your own!

But I am at least willing to try. So I will engage in a debate here as a means to try and convince me. Hopefully it works out in my favor and hopefully I will finally be completely free from all that religious dogma out there that condemns you and makes you obey certain rules.

So I am not going to try and convince you that God is not a reality.
I am not going to tell you that God knows all and it works in a mysterious ways.
The plain truth is, that I Don't know if there is a God, and I doubt if anyone on our planet knows better than me.
I've had my share of spirituality.
I've had my share of Biblical Gods.
I've studied many spiritual concepts for many years, yet I've come to the conclusion that it was all nothing but my wishful thinking.
I would recommend you a nice book called "Conversations with god", written by one, Neale Donald Walsch. It is a spiritual book that present a different view about God.
I Loved it, even though I think it is nothing more than a brilliant imagination of a decent writer.
This book BTW, was my step out of religion beliefs and spirituality.
It made me ask many questions to which even the Perfect God couldn't have answered... So I started looking for answers on my own. Viola! Atheism is a bliss
Feel free to ask anything you want, I will do my best to answer.

So to sum it up, these are your options:

1. Believe people (or a book) who say God exists
2. Believe people (or a book) who say God is actually an Energy or a Life force
3. Believe people who say There is certainly no God (Which can't ever be proven, as one can never prove absence of non existing thing)
4. Become an Atheist, and study the world and only than, come to your conclusions

Ask your self those questions:

Have I ever experienced something that cannot be explained other than it is a God or Spiritual thing?
Have I ever did anything that I couldn't have done regardless to the existence of a God?
Have I ever encountered someone who really proved me that he can connect or communicate to the spiritual realm?
Have I ever been presented with a sufficient evidence that proved there is something beyond our universe?
Have I ever heard God speak to me? Is so, Am I 100% sure it was God and not the fruits of My imagination?
Have I ever saw something that couldn't be explain scientifically?
Have I ever truly learned about something before I decided it is true or false?

Answering these questions will probably point you to the right direction, be it a personal God or not..
I Wish you luck and God bless

 

[Smart_Guy]

Yes but God in Christianity allows having parties, sex, etc. All there is to it is that it puts rules and regulations on it instead of saying you can go all out like mindless beasts, because of not, really bad things could happen.

I know the above is off-topic, but I wanted to share it that it could help.

As for your request to convince you that no-believing is the right thing, I think the Seeker's DIR is a good place for it. Unless of course you're still agnostic and open for counter arguments that believing is still an option, them I guess this place is right.

Anyway, I really hope you find the right path and find your answers. Members here are willing to help, no, they want to help.

 

[SomeRandom]

Bingo!

Its a hard concept to get out of your mind, but if you go back to the beginning, you will find no 'heaven or hell' scenario given to Adam and his wife. The penalty for disobedience was death and a return to the dust from which they were created...nothing more.

Inventing a hell of torment or torture after death required belief in an an afterlife...yet the Bible does not teach that either.

You would be amazed at how many beliefs introduced by Catholicism find no basis in scripture, but lots of similarities with pagan religions. We can discuss that if you'd like to start another thread. Its a fascinating topic.....

Hmm, it does sound like an intriguing discussion to have. Or rather, debate as I'm sure would probably happen on said thread lol
I am not particularly familiar with Catholicism or Christianity for that matter. Just second hand accounts from family and friends.
But if there is no heaven or hell, what happens if you gain salvation then? IOW what's the carrot?

 

[illykitty]

What makes you think the Christian god might exist but then not fear or question whether other gods may as well?

I'm asking this because when people worry so much about a specific god, it seems like there's already a bias there, in the back of the mind. Why aren't you worrying about Islam or other concepts? You mentioned previously you read many debates, have you looked up YouTube too? There's a lot of good videos on there and you can listen to them while doing other things (I tend to do it when doing chores). What I'm saying is there's never an end to research.

Also, I think you want Heaven to exist. You want it so bad that it makes you feel conflicted. Sure, it would be nice but what is the truth? Even if it's uncomfortable, a sceptical outlook is to simply recognise there's no way to know for sure.

I lean towards it not existing, meaning I am not certain but think it's a reasonable guess, simply because there doesn't seem to be any evidence for it. The lack of heaven makes me more pressed to live a good life here in the now. I ask myself how would you want to be remembered and what sort of mark would you want to leave? That makes me want to be a good person and make others happy. It makes me want to be ethical. How do I search that? I try to think about how to minimise suffering as much as I can manage, for myself, for my immediate entourage, for people I don't know and for other living beings. I think about what potential consequences my actions (or inaction) have. It also makes me want to live a good life, within my ethical boundaries, because I love fun. I play video games, watch anime, play, travel, cuddle my cat, eat out, etc. Living rigidly because one is scared of hell and want desperately a heaven to exist seem pretty miserable, but that's my opinion.

I'd really advice you to look into why you think the way that you do, why aren't you concerned about other gods or concepts, and what your priorities are. I can't tell you what to do, it's something you have to do yourself and trust yourself. I can give some pointers however. It's never easy to try to find your way, and maybe you won't be sure about your answers but look at it this way. You can always change your mind. If evidence is presented, you can adapt to that and change your mind. That's what I do.

There's many people here that have already posted good stuff. I'm answering to you with my perspective because been there, done that. I searched for years and to be honest, it's a lifelong journey. If new evidence pops up, I will look into it and will consider it. Until then, I have my ethical framework and try to live a fun ethical life because there's no point of being worried about the afterlife.

 

[Deeje]

Hmm, it does sound like an intriguing discussion to have. Or rather, debate as I'm sure would probably happen on said thread lol
I am not particularly familiar with Catholicism or Christianity for that matter. Just second hand accounts from family and friends.
But if there is no heaven or hell, what happens if you gain salvation then? IOW what's the carrot?

If we go back to the beginning ( a very good place to start....Julie Andrews where are you? ) you will see what God had in mind when he brought humankind into existence. These were the last creatures he fashioned, and he made them unique in that they were the only ones given the kind of intellect and attributes that he himself possessed.

He prepared a beautiful place for them to live and provided all that they would need in abundance. He told them to "fill the earth" with their kind and to "subdue" it, which meant that the human race was not to swing around in hammocks all day eating mangoes in paradise....they were designed for work and the whole planet was before them as a project with one objective...the transform the wild untamed earth outside the garden. It was an incredible project and if the humans had stayed on track instead of being sidetracked by a rebel spirit, the future would have been amazing. Since there was no natural cause of death, everlasting life would have meant a meaningful existence as caretakers of this planet and their surroundings would have been as beautiful as their creativity would dictate. We only have to imagine "paradise" in our minds and we all want to go there.....it is where we were meant to live.
They had the garden of Eden as a blueprint and no time limits. The workforce would have continually expanded as more and more children came into the world, and God's mandate to "fill the earth" (not overfill it) would have meant the most idyllic existence for all. Families growing, never separated by death or disaster.

If man had not strayed outside of obedience to the only negative command there was, God's original purpose would have been well along in its outworking by now. There would have been no need for a savior (nothing to be saved from) no need for a kingdom (God was already King) and no need to experience pain, suffering or death (from sin introduced into human lives by Adam's disobedience)

The carrot? God's original purpose will still be fulfilled, but he had to take a detour because of the abuse of free will by the three original rebels. Since free will was supposed to be a gift (allowing much personal choice in many things) its abuse turned it into a curse....humans have been abusing it ever since, overriding the free will of others by imposing their own will on them.
Humans were never supposed to dominate other humans. Power corrupts, every time.

Our current situation, according to the Bible, is the signal that God is about to intervene in human affairs by separating the obedient ones among humankind, (those who long to put the will of God first) from those who only want to live according to their own rules. Obedience to God's commands was the criteria for continued life right from the start. Those who cannot, or will not conform to God's standards for life, will forfeit the gift because there is no place for rebels in his kingdom.

"Salvation" means surviving the end of this wicked world when God sends his judge to separate the "sheep from the goats".

If you have ever prayed the "Lord's Prayer" (as most in Christendom do regularly) then God's Kingdom will "come" (ready or not) and God's will, "will be done on earth as it is in heaven". Those who oppose his kingship will have no place there.

Jesus chose a small number of very ordinary men as his apostles. These humble, basically educated men formed the foundation of a specifically numbered group who will rule with Christ in heaven. (144,000) These will form a heavenly government who will rule over redeemed mankind and bring them back into reconciliation with their God.

The dead will be raised and all will return to the way it was supposed to be in the beginning as Isaiah 55:11 states....
"So my word that goes out of my mouth will be. It will not return to me without results, But it will certainly accomplish whatever is my delight, And it will have sure success in what I send it to do."

So the carrot is everlasting life in paradise, free from the worries and woes of the present system of things....but for the vast majority of humans, this will be on earth, not in heaven...that was never God's plan to begin with.

 

[SomeRandom]

If we go back to the beginning ( a very good place to start....Julie Andrews where are you? ) you will see what God had in mind when he brought humankind into existence. These were the last creatures he fashioned, and he made them unique in that they were the only ones given the kind of intellect and attributes that he himself possessed.

Well great, now I'm going to be humming that song all night lol

If we go back to the beginning ( a very good place to start....Julie Andrews where are you? ) you will see what God had in mind when he brought humankind into existence. These were the last creatures he fashioned, and he made them unique in that they were the only ones given the kind of intellect and attributes that he himself possessed.

He prepared a beautiful place for them to live and provided all that they would need in abundance. He told them to "fill the earth" with their kind and to "subdue" it, which meant that the human race was not to swing around in hammocks all day eating mangoes in paradise....they were designed for work and the whole planet was before them as a project with one objective...the transform the wild untamed earth outside the garden. It was an incredible project and if the humans had stayed on track instead of being sidetracked by a rebel spirit, the future would have been amazing. Since there was no natural cause of death, everlasting life would have meant a meaningful existence as caretakers of this planet and their surroundings would have been as beautiful as their creativity would dictate. We only have to imagine "paradise" in our minds and we all want to go there.....it is where we were meant to live.
They had the garden of Eden as a blueprint and no time limits. The workforce would have continually expanded as more and more children came into the world, and God's mandate to "fill the earth" (not overfill it) would have meant the most idyllic existence for all. Families growing, never separated by death or disaster.

If man had not strayed outside of obedience to the only negative command there was, God's original purpose would have been well along in its outworking by now. There would have been no need for a savior (nothing to be saved from) no need for a kingdom (God was already King) and no need to experience pain, suffering or death (from sin introduced into human lives by Adam's disobedience)

The carrot? God's original purpose will still be fulfilled, but he had to take a detour because of the abuse of free will by the three original rebels. Since free will was supposed to be a gift (allowing much personal choice in many things) its abuse turned it into a curse....humans have been abusing it ever since, overriding the free will of others by imposing their own will on them.
Humans were never supposed to dominate other humans. Power corrupts, every time.

Our current situation, according to the Bible, is the signal that God is about to intervene in human affairs by separating the obedient ones among humankind, (those who long to put the will of God first) from those who only want to live according to their own rules. Obedience to God's commands was the criteria for continued life right from the start. Those who cannot, or will not conform to God's standards for life, will forfeit the gift because there is no place for rebels in his kingdom.

"Salvation" means surviving the end of this wicked world when God sends his judge to separate the "sheep from the goats".

If you have ever prayed the "Lord's Prayer" (as most in Christendom do regularly) then God's Kingdom will "come" (ready or not) and God's will, "will be done on earth as it is in heaven". Those who oppose his kingship will have no place there.

Jesus chose a small number of very ordinary men as his apostles. These humble, basically educated men formed the foundation of a specifically numbered group who will rule with Christ in heaven. (144,000) These will form a heavenly government who will rule over redeemed mankind and bring them back into reconciliation with their God.

The dead will be raised and all will return to the way it was supposed to be in the beginning as Isaiah 55:11 states....
"So my word that goes out of my mouth will be. It will not return to me without results, But it will certainly accomplish whatever is my delight, And it will have sure success in what I send it to do."

So the carrot is everlasting life in paradise, free from the worries and woes of the present system of things....but for the vast majority of humans, this will be on earth, not in heaven...that was never God's plan to begin with.

Hmm, that's interesting. I have a couple of frequent JWs who come to my door every Sunday. Two little old ladies, but I never really knew what the JW doctrine or theology is. Then again maybe I'm too hungover or too in a rush to go out to really have asked them.

So apart from the "selected" 144000, do JWs believe that there is an afterlife?

 

[Deeje]

Well great, now I'm going to be humming that song all night lol

Hmm, that's interesting. I have a couple of frequent JWs who come to my door every Sunday. Two little old ladies, but I never really knew what the JW doctrine or theology is. Then again maybe I'm too hungover or too in a rush to go out to really have asked them.

Sometimes the messengers do not have the appearance of heralds....no trumpet or anything.
Some people treat them like.....

Jesus said to expect this though.

JW.ORG is a good resource if you want to know more...or you can just ask me.

So apart from the "selected" 144000, do JWs believe that there is an afterlife?

No "afterlife" as in life after death with an immortal part of ourselves floating off somewhere. The Bible has never taught that.

A return to life for those who have died is by resurrection.....that is a complete restoration of their previous life. Jesus and his apostles gave a demonstration of that in the first century. The most famous one is of course Lazarus. (John 11:11-14) Where was Lazarus before Jesus raised him? Jesus said he was "sleeping".

Healing of all maladies and disabilities was also demonstrated so that people would know what to expect when God's kingdom rules this earth in the near future.

There is a judgment coming that we believe is not too far away, when Jesus will manifest himself unexpectedly to sort the obedient ones from the unbelievers and the unfaithful. ("Wheat from weeds")

It goes something like this....
2 Thessalonians 1: 6-9:
"This is a proof of the righteous judgment of God, leading to your being counted worthy of the Kingdom of God, for which you are indeed suffering.
6 This takes into account that it is righteous on God’s part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for you. 7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength"

So we believe that a time of great trouble is coming, the likes of which have never been seen on earth, and that it will result in this judgment....a separating of the "sheep" from the "goats" or as the apostle Paul outlines above, eliminating from existence 'those who don't know God' because they don't want to know him, and 'those who know him but do not obey him'.

Since the Bible indicates that "few" are actually on the road to life, a lot of people will come under those two categories.
(Matthew 7:13, 14)

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

Before I continue, I would like to say that I think it is nonsense to think of God as an entity that demands you to serve and obey his every single command and to literally live like a slave to him, or be condemned. I think it is more accurate to think of God as some form of sustenance like spiritual water. He is there to sustain you with joy and bliss and you can drink from him anytime. Just as how water does not expect you to obey it and serve it, God also doesn't either. He is just there like water. He is there to sustain you all he can.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Before I continue, I would like to say that I think it is nonsense to think of God as an entity that demands you to serve and obey his every single command and to literally live like a slave to him, or be condemned. I think it is more accurate to think of God as some form of sustenance like spiritual water. He is there to sustain you with joy and bliss and you can drink from him anytime. Just as how water does not expect you to obey it and serve it, God also doesn't either. He is just there like water. He is there to sustain you all he can.

Without any compromise of your part to obey the laws! Not only you but almost the whole of the world live in this delusion that they can live a life of bliss without obeying the laws. Mind you that what grants you to live the way you wish is your own commitment to obey the laws. No one can blame God if he or she misses to live that kind of life he or she dreams of. The life we wish to live is entirely on our hands to live it. All we need, as Jesus himself said, is to listen to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31)