How can the Jew reject, Jesus, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah?

[Skywalker]

The Messengers are the Self of God, but no they are not God in the flesh.

Jesus said

"No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." "No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us."

Regards Tony

The Bible says that Jesus was God in the flesh. Did Jesus Christ Exist in the Form of God on Earth?

Did Jesus Empty Himself of the Form of God?
Another text commonly appealed to as proof that Jesus did not exist on Earth in “the form of God” is Philippians 2:6.

Here is the full context of what Paul wrote.

Have this mind in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men; and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient even unto death, yea, the death of the cross (Phil. 2:5-8, ASV).

But the position advocated is incorrect for the following reasons.

In Philippians 2:6, Paul spoke of Christ as “existing in the form of God.” The term “existing” is not a past tense form. It translates the Greek term huparchon, a present-tense participle. The present tense reveals that the Savior’s existence, in the “form of God,” is a sustained mode of being, not one that was interrupted by the incarnation.

 

[Skywalker]

Luckily the Bab and Baha'u'llah were not and never wanted to be world leaders.

Regards Tony

I believe that the devil will deceive people through people who are not Jesus but will be like Messiah figures to them. The Devil's Messiah

Revelation 13:4, “And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast?”

Satan is preparing the masses of the world to embrace the soon coming Antichrist, the Devil's Messiah. The world will sinfully look to the Antichrist as a Messiah to save them from all their economic and social woes.

Revelation 13:4 teaches that the Dragon [Satan] gives power to the Beast [the Antichrist]. So we see the Dragon, the Antichrist and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13).

The Bible says that the wicked world will worship the Antichrist. We read in Daniel 11:36-39 that the Antichrist will seek the worship of the world, regarding neither the God of the Bible, nor any other god

 

[Skywalker]

Well history shows that for 6 years the Bab suffered as Jesus Did, faced a farce of a trial as Jesus did and was sentenced to death as Jesus was. The Bab was suspended on a wall and shot by with 750 bullets.

That was because the Bab said he was the One awaited by all Faiths, at his trial the Bab was questioned and replied;

"........ Whom do you claim to be,” he asked the Báb, “and what is the message which you have brought?” “I am,” thrice exclaimed the Báb, “I am, I am, the promised One! I am the One whose name you have for a thousand years invoked, at whose mention you have risen, whose advent you have longed to witness, and the hour of whose Revelation you have prayed God to hasten. Verily I say, it is incumbent upon the peoples of both the East and the West to obey My word and to pledge allegiance to My person.”........ "

Regards Tony

There being a One awaited by all faiths supports Jesus being the Messiah. Native american christian pow wows?

11 "He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has also set eternity in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end." Ecclesiastes 3:11

"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse" Romans 1:20

In addition to these two scriptures think about this concept; all people on this Earth descend from Noah and his wife and kids, we also all descend from Adam and Eve further back. NOah, Adam, and Eve are all recorded to have a personal relationship with God and it only makes sense that they passed on knowledge of God to their offsprings who passed it to their offspring, etc. Over time, almost any story spread by word of mouth will change at least a little. and when there is a real enemy with his dark warriors constantly spreading lies about God on the Earth, there are bound to be people who end up changing stories of God. Even in native culture you can find stories of the creation and the flood that are similar to Biblical accounts but have been corrupted. With an understanding of God's love and the fact that He is "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9b) and think it only makes sense that He would give the Native AMerican people and all people a chance to know Him even if the Bible and the gospel message have not yet been brought to them.

Let me tell you just a couple examples from Native cultures to help further answer this. I know a Lakota Sioux man who has told me that in his people's language there was a concept of the Creator being triune before any European got here. THey had a word for the Creator being Father, Son, and Spirit three in one before the Bible was ever brought to them. they also understood that the Son had come to Earth to be a sacrifice for the people and was killed on a tree by the people of a strange shaped star (The star of David/Jewish people). I also have Apache friends who tell me that their language also already had a name for each member of the Trinity before the Bible was brought here.

One of the greatest examples comes from the Aztec people. see there was a time when the Aztec people were a small nomadic tribe wandering the Sonoran Desert. At this time they served only one God named Cenhuelitini (All-Powerful One). All-Powerful One told them of a certain tree that they were not to cut down. One day, somebody cut down this tree and they were made to wander away from the Sonoran Desert that they called Aztlan. THey were given a vision of an Eagle perched on a cactus with a snake in its mouth. THey were to wander until they found this vision and then tell the people in that area of Him. For two hundred years they wandered as a people and none of the original wanderers still lived. THey found the vision, settled, and grew into a strong empire; but their hearts forgot All-Powerful One's condition that they tell their new neighbors of Him. So instead they took on the false gods of the Mayan, Zapotec, Chichimec, and other nearby tribes.

there is a book called "Eternity in Their HEarts" by Don Richardson. He goes through many different people groups historically and today who have Biblical concepts of God in their belief system without ever reading a Bible or speaking with a Christian. The book includes several Native American tribes. I would recommend this book if you still are wondering about Natives or any tribal peoples and their historic relationship with the God of the Bible.

 

[Skywalker]

Baha'u'llah confirmed the next Messenger will come after a full expiration of a full 1000 years.

The Bab did indeed bring peace, who said we would all accept it?

Regards Tony

Jesus brought peace. What About the "Sword" of the "Prince of Peace"?

“Think not that I came to send peace on the earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law: and a man’s foes shall be they of his own household. He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me” (Mt. 10:34-37).

This text comes more sharply into focus when one recognizes the idiomatic language that is employed for the sake of forcefulness.

This passage is designed to emphasize the consequences that could follow when one commits to an unqualified loyalty to the Son of God.

Jesus was sending the twelve disciples on a preaching tour to the “lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Mt. 10:6). He warned them of the dangers of rejection; they would be like “sheep in the midst of wolves” (Mt. 10:16). The apostles would be opposed by political dignitaries, and even family members would react against them with violence.

 

[Skywalker]

Look at history, it has been 2021 years. It was not until the 1800's that the majority of the prophecy started unfolding.

Regards Tony

While Jesus didn't return in 70 AD, the Bible doesn't say that He did. Was the Lord's "Second Coming" in A.D. 70?

The theory of “realized eschatology,” better known as the A.D. 70 doctrine, alleges that all Bible prophecy, including the “Second Coming” of Christ, was fulfilled with the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in A.D. 70.

A major problem with this idea is in explaining clear Bible passages which depict the Lord’s return in a visible manner, which did not occur, of course, in A.D. 70.

While it is a fact that sometimes the word “see” can be used in the sense of “to perceive” or “to enjoy” (cf. Mt. 5:8; 24:30; Jn. 3:3), that certainly is not always the case. Especially is this true in a context where visual phenomena are clearly indicated.

Consider, for example, Acts 1:9-11. There it is said that as the disciples

“were looking, he [Christ] was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they were looking steadfastly into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; who also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand you looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was received up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye beheld him going into heaven.”

Jesus was taken up visibly into a cloud as the disciples watched; and, in like manner, as they beheld him going, he will return.

This is a huge problem for the A.D. 70 theorists. An attempt to deal with this difficulty appeared in a journal that promotes this doctrine.

 

[Skywalker]

The other alternative is that Jesus was not the end of ages Messiah that the Jews await.

I have great Love and confidence that the Jews will fulfill their destiny. I do apologies to them, for this OP, it was a moment I could not take back. May G_d bless them, one and all and may G_d spread that blessing to all others.

Regards Tony

Jesus fulfilled the prophecies of peace that are in the Tanakh. Was Jesus Really the "Messiah"?

“And there shall come forth a shoot out of the stock of Jesse, and a branch out of his roots shall bear fruit. And the Spirit of Jehovah shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of Jehovah. And his delight shall be in the fear of Jehovah; and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither decide after the hearing of his ears; but with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and decide with equity for the meek of the earth; and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth; and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his waist, and faithfulness the girdle of his loins. And the wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the adder’s den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea.And it shall come to pass in that day, that the root of Jesse, that stands for an ensign of the peoples, unto him shall the nations seek; and his resting-place shall be glorious” (11:1-10).

This comprehensive prophecy focuses upon the following factors.It sets forth the incarnation of Christ out of the loins of Jesse, David’s father (cf. 2 Samuel 7:12-13).The text describes his able ministry under the guiding influence of the Spirit of Jehovah.It underscores his impartial, righteous administration.The prophet speaks of the Messiah’s gracious benevolence towards those who meekly submit to his will, and likewise his fierce judgment ultimately upon the wicked.Finally, with vivid imagery (involving animals normally antagonistic to one another), the previewed declaration pictures an era of peace when men “shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain” (v. 9).

It is very important to observe that the peace here described is, in a sense universal (throughout the earth), yet, at the same time, it is restricted to a certain domain, within Jehovah’s “holy mountain.”The “mountain” image is not literal; rather, it signifies the kingdom of God that was to be set up in the days of the Roman Empire (cf. Daniel 2:35,44) — which institution is the same as the New Testament church (see also on Isaiah 2:2-4 above).

That this context has a spiritual fulfillment, and not one of a political nature, is demonstrated by the fact that Paul, in the book of Romans, cites this very passage and shows its fulfillment in the uniting of both Jews and Gentiles in the church of God (Romans 15:8-12).

 

[Skywalker]

If "Christ" is the same as saying "the anointed one" or "The Messiah", then the Baha'is have two people claiming that... Just how many "The Messiahs" were prophesied to come for the Jews? Baha'is have to include Jesus, Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah. They were all "Anointed Ones" or the Baha'i word "manifestations", supposedly. Most of the prophecies that have a year or day mentioned in it, most end in the year 1844. That is not Baha'u'llah. That is The Bab. It doesn't bother Baha'is all that much, because that just say that is when the "New Era" or "New dispensation" started. Oh, and another thing... I've asked multiple times for their interpretation of the "Lamb" and "The Lamb that was Slain." There is nothing official from the Baha'i infallible ones. All I've gotten is guesses by individual Baha'is. One of them says that the Lamb that was slain refers to the Bab. I think that everything in the book of Revelation implies that the Lamb and the Lamb that was slain is Jesus.

They are consistently unbelievable. I agree, that is what it says in the gospels. Although, each story varies a little bit. So as some Baha'is have pointed out that it is scientifically impossible, even though they believe God can do anything. Then he appears and disappears. A physical body can't do that. Then, he floats off into the clouds. Most all of that could have been easily made up. However, what about the empty tomb and not producing the dead body? Were the gospels written so many years later that nobody could prove otherwise? But then, when was the tomb found empty? If they didn't make up the story until years later, was the body still in the tomb?

The other thing that goes against the Baha'i interpretation is that the dying and rising of Jesus is foundational to everything that the NT is saying about Jesus... that he came to die, then rise from the dead to prove that through him people could gain eternal life. So, for me, it is almost impossible to believe all of it. But it is also impossible to reject all of it. And Baha'is, essentially reject most all the important stuff of the NT.

But, since this is about why a Jew would reject all these "messengers", none of them fit with what they believe. A dying and rising savior God/man? Rejected, too pagan. Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah? Rejected. The Jews are waiting for a Jewish Messiah not an Arabian or Persian.

Now I do believe that if everybody rejected their old religious beliefs and all followed the basic beliefs of the Baha'i Faith that things could be better. That all people learn to live in harmony by rejecting the racial and religious beliefs that separate them. The only thing is... Is Baha'u'llah really the "Promised One" of every single religion? For me, they have too many flaky answers and interpretations.... too many out of context "fulfilled" prophecies. Like the "Comforter" being Baha'u'llah? But the strangest one is that Baha'u'llah is the "Prince of this World"? How do they get that from the context? It sure seems to be Satan to me. Plus, to believe in the Baha'i Faith makes most all of the Bible and NT fictional.

And, like I tell them, if I'm going to go that far then I'm going to call it myth.... Nothing but religious myth. But, like I also say, if people believe that the myth is real, it works. Lots of people have strange beliefs. Like throwing virgins into a volcano, but every time they did that... they had good crops. So I believe, even if some of the beliefs are wrong, Christianity can and does work for those that believe. And I also believe that lots of people are just "nominal" believers and that some people are phonies and taking advantage of the people for their own gain. Like really how many Rolls Royce's, Jet planes and mansions does an evangelist really need? Anyway, keep believing and keep up the challenging questions to the Baha'is. Too many Christians just ignore them.

Critics give later dates to when the gospels were written. 13 Historical Reasons For Early Dating Of The Gospel | Reasons for Jesus

The Main Reason Critics Give Gospels Later Dates
So why do scholars date the gospels so late? There’s one big reason: Jesus predicted the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem. That happened in 70 AD. And we know predictive prophecy isn’t a real thing, so the Gospel authors must have put these words like these in Jesus’ mouth:

“…as he came out of the temple, one of his disciples said to him, “Look, Teacher, what wonderful stones and what wonderful buildings!” And Jesus said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? There will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.” (Mark 13:1-2)

“…when he drew near and saw the city, he wept over it, saying, “Would that you, even you, had known on this day the things that make for peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. For the days will come upon you, when your enemies will set up a barricade around you and surround you and hem you in on every side and tear you down to the ground, you and your children within you. And they will not leave one stone upon another in you, because you did not know the time of your visitation.” (Luke 19:41-44)

Scholars call this ‘vaticinium ex eventu’. That means that the text is written so as to appear that the prophecy had taken place before the event, when in fact it was written after the events supposedly predicted.

Well, pardon me, Mr. Skeptic. It seems like your anti-supernatural bias is showing. While real examples of this exist in history, there are a few problems with this view in regard to the Olivet Discourse.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The Bible says that Jesus was God in the flesh. Did Jesus Christ Exist in the Form of God on Earth?

I believe that the devil will deceive people through people who are not Jesus but will be like Messiah figures to them. The Devil's Messiah

There being a One awaited by all faiths supports Jesus being the Messiah. Native american christian pow wows?

Jesus brought peace. What About the "Sword" of the "Prince of Peace"?

While Jesus didn't return in 70 AD, the Bible doesn't say that He did. Was the Lord's "Second Coming" in A.D. 70?

Jesus fulfilled the prophecies of peace that are in the Tanakh. Was Jesus Really the "Messiah"?

Critics give later dates to when the gospels were written. 13 Historical Reasons For Early Dating Of The Gospel | Reasons for Jesus

Well luckily skywalker, I see a Manifestation of God's Word is a much better source of knowledge.

As such we will have to agree to disagree.

Regards Tony

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Well history shows that for 6 years the Bab suffered as Jesus Did, faced a farce of a trial as Jesus did and was sentenced to death as Jesus was. The Bab was suspended on a wall and shot by with 750 bullets.

That was because the Bab said he was the One awaited by all Faiths, at his trial the Bab was questioned and replied;

"........ Whom do you claim to be,” he asked the Báb, “and what is the message which you have brought?” “I am,” thrice exclaimed the Báb, “I am, I am, the promised One! I am the One whose name you have for a thousand years invoked, at whose mention you have risen, whose advent you have longed to witness, and the hour of whose Revelation you have prayed God to hasten. Verily I say, it is incumbent upon the peoples of both the East and the West to obey My word and to pledge allegiance to My person.”........ "

Regards Tony

To be fair, though, lots of people get offed for bad reasons.

No man hath seen God at any time

How does that work in all the times in the bible where people clearly see God? I mean, Adam and Eve practically had picnics with Him and so did Abraham.

 

[CG Didymus]

The Messengers are the Self of God, but no they are not God in the flesh.

The Bible says that Jesus was God in the flesh.

I see a Manifestation of God's Word is a much better source of knowledge.

A few spiritual people were thought to be more than just human. They were thought to be incarnations. Jesus and Krishna are ones two that fit that category. Were they "God in the flesh"? I don't know, but the Baha'is concept of a "manifestation" is close enough for me. They are "perfectly" polished mirrors that perfectly reflect God.

But, I don't believe that all the people that Baha'is call "manifestations" were perfectly polished mirrors. Was Abraham, or Noah, or Adam, or Moses, or even Muhammad? And for those that came out of the Bible, some Baha'is don't even believe the stories about them are literally and historical true, so how we would know? But if we do go by what we do know about them from the Bible, they were not perfect... They had flaws like ordinary people. Plus, they never claimed to be "manifestations". The people around them didn't claim that they were "manifestations". And Judaism nor Christianity and maybe Islam also, doesn't make them "manifestations".

Then there is the Buddha. Do Buddhists make him into a manifestation? Because from what I know of the story, the man that became the Buddha, meditated and eventually became enlightened and then taught others how to become enlightened. If he was a manifestation he certainly could not teach others to become what he was... a special creation of God... that perfectly polished mirror? Then a couple of other issues... the Baha'is don't include other great spiritual teachers like Confucius and Lao-Tzu. And they ignore all the rest of the incarnations of God that are part of Hinduism. But, when it comes to their own religion they make the forerunner to Baha'u'llah, The Bab, a manifestation also?

So, for a Jew, they would have to accept Krishna, Buddha, Zoroaster, Jesus, Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah as all be equal manifestations of their God. Plus, out of their own religion that Adam, who has a cycle named after him that ended with the coming of the Bab, then Noah, then Abraham and then Moses were all equal manifestations of God... They were all these infallible, perfectly polished mirrors? So since Moses, four manifestations came. Which one is The Messiah? All of them? Jesus and Baha'u'llah? Jesus a sort of little messiah but Baha'u'llah was The Messiah? And before this Messiah came there would be another manifestation of God just a few years ahead of him... supposedly fulfilling the prophecies about a "twin" manifestation?

And was Baha'u'llah the child that is born unto us that has the Government on his shoulders and all the rest of the things the Messiah is supposed to do? No, not literally, so a Jew would have to believe the "symbolic" interpretations given by Baha'is how all the prophecies were fulfilled and how some of them, mainly the ones about bringing peace, are going to be fulfilled. And I know some Jews that did become Baha'is. So some took the plunge and what did they get? Another religion that promises peace and unity.... some day. In the mean time the average Baha'i goes to "Feast" meetings once every 19 day Baha'is month. Does Baha'is obligatory prayers every day. Does a 19 day fast once a year and, when I was around Baha'is, they had "fireside" chats, usually weekly where Baha'is could bring "seekers" to learn about the Faith. So what's the difference? Baha'is believe the Messiah has come and sit and talk about how someday things will be better. And Jews believe that the Messiah is still to come, and when that happens, things will get better.

 

[Skywalker]

A few spiritual people were thought to be more than just human. They were thought to be incarnations. Jesus and Krishna are ones two that fit that category. Were they "God in the flesh"? I don't know, but the Baha'is concept of a "manifestation" is close enough for me. They are "perfectly" polished mirrors that perfectly reflect God.

But, I don't believe that all the people that Baha'is call "manifestations" were perfectly polished mirrors. Was Abraham, or Noah, or Adam, or Moses, or even Muhammad? And for those that came out of the Bible, some Baha'is don't even believe the stories about them are literally and historical true, so how we would know? But if we do go by what we do know about them from the Bible, they were not perfect... They had flaws like ordinary people. Plus, they never claimed to be "manifestations". The people around them didn't claim that they were "manifestations". And Judaism nor Christianity and maybe Islam also, doesn't make them "manifestations".

Then there is the Buddha. Do Buddhists make him into a manifestation? Because from what I know of the story, the man that became the Buddha, meditated and eventually became enlightened and then taught others how to become enlightened. If he was a manifestation he certainly could not teach others to become what he was... a special creation of God... that perfectly polished mirror? Then a couple of other issues... the Baha'is don't include other great spiritual teachers like Confucius and Lao-Tzu. And they ignore all the rest of the incarnations of God that are part of Hinduism. But, when it comes to their own religion they make the forerunner to Baha'u'llah, The Bab, a manifestation also?

So, for a Jew, they would have to accept Krishna, Buddha, Zoroaster, Jesus, Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah as all be equal manifestations of their God. Plus, out of their own religion that Adam, who has a cycle named after him that ended with the coming of the Bab, then Noah, then Abraham and then Moses were all equal manifestations of God... They were all these infallible, perfectly polished mirrors? So since Moses, four manifestations came. Which one is The Messiah? All of them? Jesus and Baha'u'llah? Jesus a sort of little messiah but Baha'u'llah was The Messiah? And before this Messiah came there would be another manifestation of God just a few years ahead of him... supposedly fulfilling the prophecies about a "twin" manifestation?

And was Baha'u'llah the child that is born unto us that has the Government on his shoulders and all the rest of the things the Messiah is supposed to do? No, not literally, so a Jew would have to believe the "symbolic" interpretations given by Baha'is how all the prophecies were fulfilled and how some of them, mainly the ones about bringing peace, are going to be fulfilled. And I know some Jews that did become Baha'is. So some took the plunge and what did they get? Another religion that promises peace and unity.... some day. In the mean time the average Baha'i goes to "Feast" meetings once every 19 day Baha'is month. Does Baha'is obligatory prayers every day. Does a 19 day fast once a year and, when I was around Baha'is, they had "fireside" chats, usually weekly where Baha'is could bring "seekers" to learn about the Faith. So what's the difference? Baha'is believe the Messiah has come and sit and talk about how someday things will be better. And Jews believe that the Messiah is still to come, and when that happens, things will get better.

Jesus is different from Krishna because Krishna did not love his creation so much that he would die for their sins.Jesus dying on the cross was the greatest expression of love for his creation. Krishna doesn't have the focus on holiness that Jesus had. There also aren't really and parallels between Jesus and Krishna. Believing in Krishna isn't about having a relationship with Krishna it's more about rituals.

Was Jesus’ Death & Resurrection Copied From Krishna? | Reasons for Jesus

Was Jesus’ death copied from Krishna?
Let’s compare Jesus and Krishna. In The World’s Sixteen Crucified Saviors, Graves wrote that Krishna was crucified between two thieves (p. 140). But no Hindu text says Krishna was crucified at all! Still, some wonder if there’s a parallel between the way Jesus and Krishna died. They’ve heard that long before Jesus’ death, there was an old Indian myth about the Hindu god Krishna being pierced and resurrected. Really?

It does sound curious when you put it that way. After all, Christians link Isaiah 53:5to Jesus’ death by crucifixion: “But he was pierced for our transgressions…with his wounds we are healed” (Compare this with 1 Peter 2:24). But here’s the thing: All things can seem similar if you ignore the differences!

Read for yourself what the Indian epic-poem called the Mahabharata (Book 16: Mausala Parva) says about Krishna. He wasn’t crucified. Instead, he got shot in a hunting accident!

“The hunter, mistaking [Krishna]…for a deer, pierced him at the heel with a shaft and quickly came to that spot for capturing his prey. Coming up, Jara [the hunter] beheld a man dressed in yellow robes, rapt in Yoga and endued with many arms. Regarding himself an offender, and filled with fear, he touched the feet of [Krishna, who] comforted him and then ascended upwards…When he reached Heaven [he] met the deities…”

Yes, Krishna was pierced. But he was pierced by an arrow when he got shot in the foot! Krishna wasn’t crucified. And he certainly wasn’t crucified between two thieves!

So was Jesus’ death by crucifixion copied from Krishna? Nope. Turns out, there’s no crucifixion in the Krishna story at all. We just don’t see a meaningful parallel between Jesus and Krishna in this regard. What about Graves’ idea that Krishna was a resurrected savior?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

To be fair, though, lots of people get offed for bad reasons.

Yes many injustices have unfolded in this world.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

How does that work in all the times in the bible where people clearly see God? I mean, Adam and Eve practically had picnics with Him and so did Abraham.

Good morning, hope you are well and happy and what a Big topic. All the Messenger tell of visions of the way God has given the Message.

Personally I see that the story of Adam and Eve is highly symbolic of the spiritual awakening of man in a Messenger called Adam.

Likewise with Abraham it is a symbolic story of the Message Abraham offerd humanity from God.

Jesus said;

John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

To me, all the stories are explaining the connection of man to God via the Holy Spirit, all we can know of God is that connection with the Attributes of God, we and the Messages can not know the Essence of God.

All the Mesengers become the 'Self of God' amongst us as the attributes. So what Adam and Abraham were explaining, in the way I consider, is that they were talking of the true potential inherent within the Spirit that were imparting from God.

Baha'u'llah offerd it was He who conversed with Moses through the burning bush, so there is a lot we may need to consider on this subject.

Thank you for visiting and offering thoughts and questions.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

A few spiritual people were thought to be more than just human. They were thought to be incarnations. Jesus and Krishna are ones two that fit that category. Were they "God in the flesh"? I don't know, but the Baha'is concept of a "manifestation" is close enough for me. They are "perfectly" polished mirrors that perfectly reflect God.

But, I don't believe that all the people that Baha'is call "manifestations" were perfectly polished mirrors. Was Abraham, or Noah, or Adam, or Moses, or even Muhammad? And for those that came out of the Bible, some Baha'is don't even believe the stories about them are literally and historical true, so how we would know? But if we do go by what we do know about them from the Bible, they were not perfect... They had flaws like ordinary people. Plus, they never claimed to be "manifestations". The people around them didn't claim that they were "manifestations". And Judaism nor Christianity and maybe Islam also, doesn't make them "manifestations".

Then there is the Buddha. Do Buddhists make him into a manifestation? Because from what I know of the story, the man that became the Buddha, meditated and eventually became enlightened and then taught others how to become enlightened. If he was a manifestation he certainly could not teach others to become what he was... a special creation of God... that perfectly polished mirror? Then a couple of other issues... the Baha'is don't include other great spiritual teachers like Confucius and Lao-Tzu. And they ignore all the rest of the incarnations of God that are part of Hinduism. But, when it comes to their own religion they make the forerunner to Baha'u'llah, The Bab, a manifestation also?

So, for a Jew, they would have to accept Krishna, Buddha, Zoroaster, Jesus, Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah as all be equal manifestations of their God. Plus, out of their own religion that Adam, who has a cycle named after him that ended with the coming of the Bab, then Noah, then Abraham and then Moses were all equal manifestations of God... They were all these infallible, perfectly polished mirrors? So since Moses, four manifestations came. Which one is The Messiah? All of them? Jesus and Baha'u'llah? Jesus a sort of little messiah but Baha'u'llah was The Messiah? And before this Messiah came there would be another manifestation of God just a few years ahead of him... supposedly fulfilling the prophecies about a "twin" manifestation?

And was Baha'u'llah the child that is born unto us that has the Government on his shoulders and all the rest of the things the Messiah is supposed to do? No, not literally, so a Jew would have to believe the "symbolic" interpretations given by Baha'is how all the prophecies were fulfilled and how some of them, mainly the ones about bringing peace, are going to be fulfilled. And I know some Jews that did become Baha'is. So some took the plunge and what did they get? Another religion that promises peace and unity.... some day. In the mean time the average Baha'i goes to "Feast" meetings once every 19 day Baha'is month. Does Baha'is obligatory prayers every day. Does a 19 day fast once a year and, when I was around Baha'is, they had "fireside" chats, usually weekly where Baha'is could bring "seekers" to learn about the Faith. So what's the difference? Baha'is believe the Messiah has come and sit and talk about how someday things will be better. And Jews believe that the Messiah is still to come, and when that happens, things will get better.

All good questions CG. We have also answered them all many times on this forum.

Thus I see a great turmoil in your heart, it is a battle of mind you are having, weighing the good against the bad. Is this battle real or symbolic? If you were to put that all into words to describe your state of heart, how would you do it?

If we then go back to visions people may have given in prophecy 1000's of years before, about a future they could not yet imagine, let alone put it into words, we can then see prophecy in a different light.

Have you read this?

Spoiler: The Seven Valleys

The Call of the Divine Beloved | Bahá’í Reference Library

Regards Tony

 

[Inquire of God]

How is this possible?

Israel is the centre of the Faith in One God.

Stands to reason God chose the Centre point of all God given Faiths. Stands to reason they would not last, if they are not of God.

Israel has millions of pilgrims each year going to give praise to One God.

Jews and Christians, inclusive of people from many other previous faiths and Muslims also inclusive of people from many other previous faiths and Baha'is inclusive of people from many other previous faiths, one and all go to pray to One God.

Is it Biblical that all Faiths will become One in God?

How do all Faiths with One God, not see the One God?

RegardsTony

I accept anyone from any religion, faith or none or whatever they want to call it or to not call it. I only ask that they be kind, love others and not expect anyone to kiss their rear-ends.
People who are truly "religious" seek to help others, and not to demean them and to prove themselves better by some foolish reasoning.
Even people who are inspired by simple ethics of kindness and no religion do this.
The important point is this, what have each of us done to better the life of those who are truly suffering, poor, homeless or hurting?
This is what God is looking for.
This is what a righteous person's non-God expects.
It's the right way to be.

 

[Skywalker]

Well luckily skywalker, I see a Manifestation of God's Word is a much better source of knowledge.

As such we will have to agree to disagree.

Regards Tony

Jesus is called the Word in the Bible, and he said that many will come in his name saying they are the Christ. Baha'is Accept the Divinity of Jesus

I would simply like to cite the following quote from Shoghi Effendi, who was the head of the Baha'i Faith from 1921 until his passing in 1957:

"As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of Apostles, is upheld and defended."

Also, Baha'u'llah described the station of Jesus as a "station which hath been exalted above the imaginings of all that dwell on earth." I take this to mean that we cannot imagine how great His station was.

Baha'is will defend the station of Jesus as vehemently to non- Christians as they will defend the station of Muhammed to non- Muslims.

The discussion of the true nature of Christ has been going on for centuries. It divided the early church into contentious factions, and later became a major source of the misunderstand- ings between Islam and Christianity.

All of this occurred, in short, because people failed to consider that there were other alternatives to the question of whether Christ was essentially a man or essentially a co-equal with God, the Father. Clear arguments can be made that show that both of these positions are untenable, and few people (in the religious community at least) would accept either position unequivocally. Islam made it clear that monotheism was very important and that neither Christ, nor any of the other Messengers, could be considered as co-equals with God, the Father, as this would be a departure from monotheism. Christians seem to have taken the Islamic teaching to mean that Islam regards Christ as nothing more than a normal man with a set of moral teachings. This is not the case.

This dilemma is resolved in the Baha'i teachings, which recognize a level of existence that is between man and God, the Father. It is sometimes referred to as the level of the "Manifestation of God". We cannot comprehend the greatness of this level of existence, any more than an animal can comprehend what it is like to be human or a plant comprehend the life of an animal. It is unquestionably a divine and eternal station. From this station, the light and image of God, the Father are perfectly reflected into our human world, and His will is made known.

Many of the confusing statements in the Bible about the nature of Christ are easily understood if we keep this analogy of a mirror in mind. "I am in the Father" i.e. Christ is a mirror that is able to stand in the direct light of God, the Father; "and the Father is in Me," i.e. whenever we look at the mirror, we see a clear image of God, the Father. The Manifestations are indeed the "light of the world," a light that shines into the darkness, which the darkness cannot overcome. "The Father and I are one" refers to the fact that the spiritual light that shines from God is the same as what is reflected in Christ.

It is a challenging topic, and I pray that the readers will be able to stretch themselves enough to understand a new concept. To do so is to take an historic step over barriers that have been the source of vast amounts of misunderstanding, hatred and even war over many centuries.

 

[CG Didymus]

Well luckily skywalker, I see a Manifestation of God's Word is a much better source of knowledge.

As such we will have to agree to disagree.

Regards Tony

The Bible says

in the Tanakh.

Tony... This is where Baha'is try to have it both ways... the Bible is true and untrue at the same time. How many times have you posted that quote that says the Bible is "God's" gift or something? Skywalker is quoting "God's Word", the Bible and using "God's Word", the Bible, for his interpretations. I think the Baha'is have more than just problems with how Christians interpret their Scriptures. I think Baha'is disagree with things stated in the Christian Scriptures. And both Baha'is and Christians disagree with some things stated in the Jewish Bible.

 

[Skywalker]

Tony... This is where Baha'is try to have it both ways... the Bible is true and untrue at the same time. How many times have you posted that quote that says the Bible is "God's" gift or something? Skywalker is quoting "God's Word", the Bible and using "God's Word", the Bible, for his interpretations. I think the Baha'is have more than just problems with how Christians interpret their Scriptures. I think Baha'is disagree with things stated in the Christian Scriptures. And both Baha'is and Christians disagree with some things stated in the Jewish Bible.

How could there be a person coming in the spirit of Christ? Christ said that many would come in his name and deceive many.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Tony... This is where Baha'is try to have it both ways... the Bible is true and untrue at the same time. How many times have you posted that quote that says the Bible is "God's" gift or something? Skywalker is quoting "God's Word", the Bible and using "God's Word", the Bible, for his interpretations. I think the Baha'is have more than just problems with how Christians interpret their Scriptures. I think Baha'is disagree with things stated in the Christian Scriptures. And both Baha'is and Christians disagree with some things stated in the Jewish Bible.

Good morning CG, I have an RDO today.

I do not see a conflict. What is happening here is just a disagreement on interpretation. I can agree to disagree and get on with life.

I see no Christian in this day can quote any source of Authority in interpretation, as that has been lost since the Message of Muhammad was brought to humanity. It can also be shown that the Christian Church by the end of the AD300's was already adding meaning to the Word in the Bible, by setting doctrinal beliefs, which was warned against in that same book. As you are aware, the interpretation I use is taken from the either the Quran which also finds interpretation in the writings of the Baha'i Faith and the writings of the Baha'i Faith.

So I am happy to just plain and simply leave it at that. Unless one has more questions?

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

How could there be a person coming in the spirit of Christ? Christ said that many would come in his name and deceive many.

Christ also said that there would be true paths to follow and how to determine who were true and who were false.

Regards Tony