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Featured How can the Jew reject, Jesus, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Tony Bristow-Stagg, Dec 30, 2020.

  1. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    When you are happy and content, one looks for what will fulfil that contentment, not what would challenge it.

    Regards Tony
     
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  2. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Yes, I have posted to many Jews over the years and that is what they have told me. Were they to recognize Manifestations of God, they would have to completely change their belief system, since they do not believe that there is any such thing as a Manifestation of God that has a two-fold nature, both human and divine, as Baha'is believe. Jews believe that there are Prophets who are just ordinary men, with no divine nature or infallibility.
    I do not know if Jews study other faiths although some Jews on this forum discuss Christianity since Christians sometimes engage them in a conversation about Christianity asking them why they did not recognize Jesus.

    Jews do not believe that Christians or Baha'is have fulfilled the requirements of what the Messiah is supposed to do because of how they interpret their scriptures. They have expectations of the Messiah and until those expectations are met they will keep waiting, and in that sense Jews are no different from Christians who have a different set of expectations for the Messiah, that he will be the same Jesus coming down in the clouds.
     
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  3. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    The reason Baha’is believe in the virgin birth is because that is upheld by Baha’u’llah. The reason we accept what the gospels say is because Baha’u’llah wrote that the gospels are God’s holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures, but that does not mean we have to believe everything in the gospels or the Old Testament literally happened, since there is no reason to believe that. However, they can still have spiritual meanings and many of the stories have deep spiritual meanings. I see no reason why they have to be true stories in order to have value.

    Baha’is are not obligated to believe in Christian doctrines that were man-made because we do not believe they are true.
    The Temple that Baha’u’llah was referring to when He said “We built the Temple with the hands of power and might” is the Word of God for this age, not the Word of God of past ages. We know that because Baha’u’llah goes on to say “This is the Temple promised unto you in the Book.”

    What Jews and Christians believe has been passed down through the generations and Abdu’l-Baha referred to that as religious tradition. They do not really think about why they believe it, they just believe it because that is what they have been taught to believe. I do not necessarily believe that the Jewish Bible reflects the will of God since it was written by men. The same applies to the New Testament. Some of these texts might reflect the will of God but they are not the Word of God in the same sense as the Writings of Baha’u’llah or even the Qur’an since we do not even know who authored the texts.
    How much of the Bible is made up based upon what the people of those days believed about God and what that God's laws should be and how much originated from God I cannot say, but it really does not matter to me because I am a Baha’i and I don’t follow the Books of past dispensations.

    You just answered your own questions. Yes, God allowed what was allegedly His Word to be messed up by humans because God does not interfere with human free will. And none of them are better than any other but since they were written for the dispensations of the past they are not what God wants us to be following in this age, according to Baha’u’llah, who said:

    “This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth.” Gleanings, p. 171
    A Jew would have no reason to convert to Christianity unless they came to believe what Christianity teaches, but unless they were looking to be saved or a Christian could convince a Jew that Jesus was sent by God and Christianity is the true religion, I don’t see that happening.

    I have explained why Baha’is believe the Bible is from God, it is because of what Baha’u’llah wrote while addressing the Muslims:

    “We have also heard a number of the foolish of the earth assert that the genuine text of the heavenly Gospel doth not exist amongst the Christians, that it hath ascended unto heaven. How grievously they have erred! How oblivious of the fact that such a statement imputeth the gravest injustice and tyranny to a gracious and loving Providence! “How could God, when once the Day-star of the beauty of Jesus had disappeared from the sight of His people, and ascended unto the fourth heaven, cause His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures, to disappear also?” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 89

    In that passage Baha’u’llah was referring to the New Testament, but in other passages in The Kitab-i-Iqan Baha’u’llah validates some of what is written in the Old Testament about certain Prophets so we know that is the truth since we believe that Baha’u’llah was infallible.
     
  4. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    And how many people are happy and content? How many are happy and content with the religion of their parents? Should people ever be happy and content with what they believe or be constantly seeking the truth? Baha'is, theoretically, have personally investigated the truth. How thorough was that investigation? Have they learned new information about their religion and the religions of others since that time? If any person find things that they disagree with in their religion should they ask about why their religion believes those things? Or just be "content" and ignore those things? With wars, poverty, and racial turmoil and some people in some religions challenging the beliefs of people in other religions should people be content and happy with the way things are?

    I think is one of the main arguments of the Baha'i Faith. Baha'is claim they have answers to those problems and challenge the people in the other religions to look into the claims of Baha'u'llah and see for themselves if he is telling the truth, that he is a messenger from God. And what do Baha'is say about the future if the teachings of the Baha'i Faith are ignored? Things are going to get better or are they going to get worse? I think Baha'is say things will get worse. So how can anybody be happy and content as the world crumbles?

    Many people, I think, reject the Baha'i Faith because they don't believe the claims of Baha'u'llah, not that they are necessarily happy and content.
     
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  5. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    I don't see being "happy and content" as the reason why they reject Christianity or the Baha'i Faith. And like I've said a few times now, to become a Christian, in any sect or denomination, would, like you say, completely change their belief system... to a bunch of religious doctrines and beliefs that even Baha'is say are false. So why do it? Now, with the coming of Baha'u'llah, Baha'is are expecting those Jews to recognize Baha'u'llah as their Messiah and to accept Jesus also. But not the Jesus as taught by any of the many Christian sects. Like you say, liberal Christians are close but still not perfect and exact with their beliefs about Jesus. So that Jew is only expected to believe in the Baha'i version of Jesus. The one that died and stayed dead and is not, himself, coming back.
     
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  6. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    So Baha'is don't have to believe those gospel stories literally, yet, because Baha'u'llah said that Jesus was born of a virgin, that is literal? So Mary gave Jesus her half of the chromosomes, where did the other half come from? Did angels appear to shepherds and tell them to go visit the baby Jesus? Did Wiseman from the East follow a star to Bethlehem? Did Herod have the baby boys in Bethlehem all killed? All of that true? Or just the virgin birth part and the rest is fictional? For me, the virgin birth is the most easily made up part of the story. Written several decades later, who's going to know? It could easily be nothing but a legend and tradition just like Jesus supposedly making birds out of clay and making them come alive. Was that true? It is in the Quran? Does Baha'u'llah support and stand by this belief? If so, I've got a problem... Jesus can make mud come to life, but Baha'is don't believe Jesus, through the power of God, make himself and others come back to life.

    Oh, and a fictional bunch of stories can not be the greatest testimony. It's just a good, made up story... a testimony of how when legends and myths are believed as true, they can have a great impact on people.

    Oh, and back to the "virgin" birth. What do you think of the passage in Isaiah that Christians use as a prophecy about the virgin birth? I agree with Jews that it was not a Messianic prophecy. And the gospel writer took one verse and claimed it to be a prophesy. But he ignored the context along with the problem of translating the Hebrew word to mean "virgin".
     
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  7. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    That is their choice, I am not here to change that choice.

    Tell me what teachings of Baha'u'llah deserve not to be embraced and will indicate that Baha'u'llah is not who he claimed to Be.

    Independent Investigation of Truth, or Elimination of Prejudice of Every Kind, or The Oneness of Humanity, or One Essential Foundation for All Religions, or Religion Should Cause Love, Affection, and Joy, or The Harmony of Science and Religion, or A Universal Auxiliary Language, or Universal Compulsory Education, or Gender Equality, or Establishing a World Parliament, or The Abolition of the Extremes of Wealth and Poverty, or The Non-Involvement of Religion With Politics, or Human Rights for All?

    One can see that these fundamental Baha’i principles such as the independent search after truth, unfettered by superstition or tradition; the oneness of the entire human race, the pivotal principle and fundamental doctrine of the Faith; the basic unity of all religions; the condemnation of all forms of prejudice, whether religious, racial, class or national; the harmony which must exist between religion and science; the equality of men and women, the two wings on which the bird of human kind is able to soar; the introduction of compulsory education; the adoption of a universal auxiliary language; the abolition of the extremes of wealth and poverty; the institution of a world tribunal for the adjudication of disputes between nations; the exaltation of work, performed in the spirit of service, to the rank of worship; the glorification of justice as the ruling principle in human society, and of religion as a bulwark for the protection of all peoples and nations; and the establishment of a permanent and universal peace are becoming more apparent in the mind of humanity that they are needed, that they are the supreme goal of all mankind, and these stand out as the essential elements which Baháʼu'lláh proclaimed, so.............

    As these principles start to permeate the mind of our next generations, the people will also start to embrace the source.

    Regards Tony
     
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  8. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I am happy to see the world crumble because I know that is the only way it can be built back up.

    “Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 7
    The hundred-dollar question is why they do not believe the claims. There are different reasons for everyone, but here is the list of reasons I compiled some time ago when asked why the Baha'i Faith is still relatively small. The primary reason is #4.

    1. Many people have never heard of the Baha’i Faith, so they do not know there is something to look for. It is the responsibility of the Baha’is to get the message out, so if that is not happening, the Baha’is are to blame. However, there are so few Baha’is and they are busy building the New World Order, and there is only so much time, so they can only do so much.

    2. But even after people know about the Baha’i Faith, most people are not even willing to look the evidence in order to determine if it is true or not.

    3. Even if they are willing to look at the evidence, there is a lot of prejudice before even getting out the door to look at the evidence.

    4. 84% of people in the world already have a religion and they are happy with their religion so they have no interest in a “new religion.”

    5. The rest of the world’s population is agnostics or atheists or believers who are prejudiced against all religion.

    6. Agnostics or atheists and atheists and believers who have no religion either do not believe that God communicates via Messengers or they find fault with the Messenger, Baha’u’llah.

    7. Baha’u’llah brought new teachings and laws that are very different from the older religions so many people are suspicious of those teachings and/or don’t like the laws because some laws require them to give things up that they like doing.
     
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  9. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I just think that most all religions were probably made up by that culture. Like who was the manifestation for the Greek religion or the Egyptian religion? Did they have a manifestation, then they got so far off track that they came up with multiple Gods and demon Gods? Sounds like myth to me. Then Tribal people had shamans and ancestor worship. Some had a belief in a Great Spirit but also evil spirits. And they also believed that animal spirits communicated to them during their visions. And those beliefs fit their culture perfectly. Then what happens? European Christians came over and outlawed the Native beliefs and taught them that they had to believe in a dying and rising God/man or they would burn in hell along with Satan.

    So who was the manifestation to those Native people? And what happened to their "free will"? In God's grand scheme of things did he plan on having the Europeans come over and force their, supposedly true beliefs, on the Native people? And just by sending messengers God is intervening. But not until things get bad enough? Nice guy. And God intervened with the Jews all through the Bible... but we don't believe those things really happened do we. Then he sent Jesus. God knew that he would be rejected. He didn't have Jesus write down any commands or rules or practices for people to get more spiritual. Instead, he has the follower of Jesus write the stuff down. Knowing they would embellish the story and make Jesus a God. That's intervening in the wrong way. God sends his messenger and let's the message get written down wrong so that for hundreds of years the followers of Jesus believe and do the wrong things. And because they believe the wrong things they reject and fight against God's next messenger Muhammad?

    If the story and the "truth" is vague and too subject to the wrong interpretations, then that's God fault. And now with Baha'u'llah, God is allowing "free will"? No, he is threatening people with terrible consequences for not believe. So it is far from "free". If true, their is going to be a big cost. So with this kind of track record, I don't trust what people say about their Gods and their religion. And, except for their own religion, it sure seems like Baha'is don't trust the beliefs of the people in the other religions either.
     
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  10. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Sure, great things to believe in. But I'd also have to believe that Jesus is dead and gone. That reincarnation is a false belief. That most all the stories in the Bible are fictional. And that, somehow, all this religious mess is a planned "progression" from one true God? No problem for you. But even with all those great things, how are they going to be put into practice? Baha'is keep saying that they have no intention of requiring their laws, the laws of God, to be followed by non-Baha'is. So all the governments in all the world are someday going to apply all the Baha'i principles, yet not be Baha'i? And they will do it perfectly? Individual people in the U.S. don't want to disarm, how are you going to get nations to disarm? Or, does everyone let the Baha'is take control and govern the world?
     
  11. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Since Jesus spoke the universe into existence, there is no reason that he couldn't come back in his resurrection body.
     
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  12. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Baha'u'llah is like the people who came in the name of Christ and said that they are the Christ.
     
  13. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Baha'u'llah did not claim to be the Christ, He claimed to be the return of the Christ Spirit.
    Baha'u'llah did not come in the name of Christ, He came with a new name, just as the Bible says.

    Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

    Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
     
  14. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Herod being violent is supported by the historical record. Is there secular evidence Herod killed babies under the age of two? | NeverThirsty

     
  15. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    What's the difference? There is no need for there to be two Christs.
     
  16. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    God does send the Messengers but that is the only way God intervenes in the affairs of man. I think this BahaiTeachings.org article is pertinent to what you are asking. Here is an excerpt from it:

    These two themes are inseparable and reciprocal aspects of a single thesis. God as an essentially metaphysical Being does not need to intervene personally in human events — His metaphysical hands do not literally reach down to direct human affairs, as implied in the Old Testament or as portrayed in Michelangelo’s masterpiece on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. That telling gap depicted in the painting between the fingers of God and Adam becomes bridged by those messengers whom God empowers to carry out His bidding.

    Muhammad called these Beings “messengers” (rasul), and in numerous surih or chapters of the Qur’an, he catalogued, often in chronological order, some of the prophets of God who have appeared in history. One of the more familiar of these recitations occurs in the Surih of Hud, where Muhammad remarked that each prophet came with clear proof of his station and yet was rejected by the very people to whom he appeared.

    While Muhammad emphasizes the stories of those messengers in what is sometimes called the “Abrahamic” line of prophets — those descended from Abraham as opposed to the “Dharmic” line consisting of prophets such as Krishna, Buddha, and possibly Zoroaster — he also made it plain that this process is not confined to a particular period of time or a particular place. In Surih 10:47, Muhammad states “To every people (was sent) a Messenger: when their Messenger comes (before them), the matter will be judged between them with justice, and they will not be wronged.”


    https://bahaiteachings.org/to-every-people-was-sent-a-messenger
    Once God sends the Messenger it is man's responsibility as to what to do with the message because man has free will. God cannot be blamed for what man does with his free will.
    Baha'is do not trust all the beliefs of other religions because many of them do not represent what is in the scriptures if those religions, they are rather just man-made doctrines.

    If the story and the "truth" is vague and too subject to the wrong interpretations, then that's not God fault since God did not write the story, man did. No, God is not threatening people with terrible consequences for not believing. The only punishment I am aware of is not getting the reward. Those who choose to believe will get the reward and those who don't will miss out on the reward.

    “He who shall accept and believe, shall receive his reward; and he who shall turn away, shall receive none other than his own punishment.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 339
     
  17. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    There are not two Christs, there are two Messengers of God. Actually, there have been many more than two over the course of history and they were sent by God as the need arose.
     
  18. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Why do you reject the belief of the resurrection of Jesus? The stories are consistent. Do The Resurrection Stories Contradict In The Gospels? | Reasons for Jesus

     
  19. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    I believe that at one point, everyone knew about God. I think that probably most of these legends and beliefs come from the reality that all people had a common beginning and at one time everyone knew God. These accounts were passed down and developed (and became corrupted in some ways) into the tales and lore that these cultures have today,

    Native american christian pow wows?

     
  20. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    If "Christ" is the same as saying "the anointed one" or "The Messiah", then the Baha'is have two people claiming that... Just how many "The Messiahs" were prophesied to come for the Jews? Baha'is have to include Jesus, Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah. They were all "Anointed Ones" or the Baha'i word "manifestations", supposedly. Most of the prophecies that have a year or day mentioned in it, most end in the year 1844. That is not Baha'u'llah. That is The Bab. It doesn't bother Baha'is all that much, because that just say that is when the "New Era" or "New dispensation" started. Oh, and another thing... I've asked multiple times for their interpretation of the "Lamb" and "The Lamb that was Slain." There is nothing official from the Baha'i infallible ones. All I've gotten is guesses by individual Baha'is. One of them says that the Lamb that was slain refers to the Bab. I think that everything in the book of Revelation implies that the Lamb and the Lamb that was slain is Jesus.

    They are consistently unbelievable. I agree, that is what it says in the gospels. Although, each story varies a little bit. So as some Baha'is have pointed out that it is scientifically impossible, even though they believe God can do anything. Then he appears and disappears. A physical body can't do that. Then, he floats off into the clouds. Most all of that could have been easily made up. However, what about the empty tomb and not producing the dead body? Were the gospels written so many years later that nobody could prove otherwise? But then, when was the tomb found empty? If they didn't make up the story until years later, was the body still in the tomb?

    The other thing that goes against the Baha'i interpretation is that the dying and rising of Jesus is foundational to everything that the NT is saying about Jesus... that he came to die, then rise from the dead to prove that through him people could gain eternal life. So, for me, it is almost impossible to believe all of it. But it is also impossible to reject all of it. And Baha'is, essentially reject most all the important stuff of the NT.

    But, since this is about why a Jew would reject all these "messengers", none of them fit with what they believe. A dying and rising savior God/man? Rejected, too pagan. Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah? Rejected. The Jews are waiting for a Jewish Messiah not an Arabian or Persian.

    Now I do believe that if everybody rejected their old religious beliefs and all followed the basic beliefs of the Baha'i Faith that things could be better. That all people learn to live in harmony by rejecting the racial and religious beliefs that separate them. The only thing is... Is Baha'u'llah really the "Promised One" of every single religion? For me, they have too many flaky answers and interpretations.... too many out of context "fulfilled" prophecies. Like the "Comforter" being Baha'u'llah? But the strangest one is that Baha'u'llah is the "Prince of this World"? How do they get that from the context? It sure seems to be Satan to me. Plus, to believe in the Baha'i Faith makes most all of the Bible and NT fictional.

    And, like I tell them, if I'm going to go that far then I'm going to call it myth.... Nothing but religious myth. But, like I also say, if people believe that the myth is real, it works. Lots of people have strange beliefs. Like throwing virgins into a volcano, but every time they did that... they had good crops. So I believe, even if some of the beliefs are wrong, Christianity can and does work for those that believe. And I also believe that lots of people are just "nominal" believers and that some people are phonies and taking advantage of the people for their own gain. Like really how many Rolls Royce's, Jet planes and mansions does an evangelist really need? Anyway, keep believing and keep up the challenging questions to the Baha'is. Too many Christians just ignore them.
     
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