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Featured How can the Jew reject, Jesus, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Tony Bristow-Stagg, Dec 30, 2020.

  1. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I consider that a complete misinterpretation of scriptures.... I have it saved in a Word document, so one more time:

    A glorified body is not physical, it is spiritual. There is nothing in the Bible that supports such a belief. There is no such thing as a physical body, that differs from our fallen mortal bodies in that it will never age, suffer disease, or die. It is not in the Bible, it is a misinterpretation of scripture. Below is a post I posted to another Christian a few months ago:

    There is no such thing as a glorious spiritual body of incorruptible light. This is not in the Bible anywhere.

    There is no such thing as a physical body that is transformed into an immortal body. It is not in the Bible anywhere. This is a Christian belief that came about because the Bible was misinterpreted. ALL these misconceptions about a Resurrection Body came about because Christians believe that Jesus rose from the dead.

    It is clear and plain what the Bible SAYS.

    There are physical bodies and spiritual bodies, as Paul said. The physical body is the source of all corruption as the Bible says, it is the source of dishonor, it is weak, and that is because the physical body is subject to sin.

    The spiritual body is incorruptible because spirit can never die. Paul said that the body is raised in glory and raised in power and that is because the spiritual body has glory and power. The soul (spirit) is glorified and has power because it was created by God.
    Baha’is believe that souls go to heaven and take on a spiritual body, which is the same thing as what Paul says in 1st Cor:
    We are raised in a spiritual body because only spiritual bodies can enter heaven.

    1st Corinthians 15

    35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
    36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
    42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
    43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
    44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
    46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
    50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

    53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


    The verse above says nothing about the physical body being changed into a glorified body that cannot die. The verses above clearly state that there are two kinds of bodies, a natural body and a spiritual body; we are sown in a natural body and we are raised in a spiritual body.
     
  2. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    The context of Jesus saying that was before he went to the cross, not in a discussion about the second coming.
     
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  3. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Aging, suffering, disease, and dying exists because of the fall. Before the tribulation, the souls of people will be brought up and they will become glorified bodies. I think people at the judgement seat of Christ and the marriage supper of the lamb will have different bodies. Why do you think Christians won't return in glorified bodies?

    The Redemption of Our Body
     
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  4. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Okay, so the verses that mention Mt. Carmel, those are literal. And those that mention Mt. Zion and Jerusalem, those are metaphorical?
     
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  5. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    You have to do some creative interpretations to make the "God" of all religions the same. Then I know you try and eliminate some religions by saying they weren't "revealed". So God, for the people of India, told them that he is more than one and that he incarnates now and again. He also told most of them not to eat meat. Then he told the Hebrews not only to keep eating meat but to sacrifice some of their meat to him. Then he told Christians not to sacrifice animals. And so on.

    All I've ever heard Baha'is say is that these inconsistencies are because people have added things into their religion. That if we go to the "original" message, we'd find a consistent message. But there is no "original" message. All we have is Baha'is telling us that "originally" all revealed religions are one and a progression from one to the next. And, that the new one abrogates the "social" teaching of the previous one. So all "true" seekers... All those that love God, should have dumped their old beliefs and followed the latest person who claimed to have a message from God. So, prior to the Baha'i Faith, every true lover of God should have become a follower of Muhammad's teachings?

    But you know that didn't happen. And really, why back when, a spiritual Jew should have left their religion for the "truth" of the message of the Buddha or Zoroaster? They should have recognized God in the teachings of those religions and adopted those new, updated laws from God? No, we know that all those religions are very different. And the "God" they teach about in their Scriptures is very different in each religion.
     
  6. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Read on and that will be answered in another post that I posted to you yesterday:
    #884 Trailblazer, Yesterday at 5:43 PM
     
  7. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Early Zoroastrianism didn't have beliefs about the bodily ressurection. There's also evidence that the Persians were influenced by the Jews and the Bible. Jesus Vs Zoroaster – Debunking The Alleged Parallels | Reasons for Jesus

     
  8. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    So a person who doesn't research the meaning of the words in the different prophecies isn't a sincere seeker? Yes, I can see that. So what do the words mean when Jesus says he is not a ghost but has flesh and bone?

    Christians tell me that when Jesus comes it will be very clear... You know like every eye will see him. It says that things will get so bad that people will want to die rather than go through more torment. Has that happened yet? No... but I supposed those verses aren't literal.
     
  9. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    What do you see as the "foundation" that Jesus laid? And what ever you think that might be, do you still think that Paul changed it?
     
  10. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    To follow the Baha'i progression, people should have come to believe in Zoroastrianism. So Jews missed the Buddha, Zoroaster, Jesus, Muhammad, The Bab and now Baha'u'llah. Their religion and their laws, according to the Baha'is, were abrogated with the new messenger/manifestation from God.
     
  11. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Did the Baha'is ever really want to know why a Jew would reject Jesus, Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah? Or was it just so they could have an opportunity to say (they don't "preach" or "proselytize") why a Jew and all people should believe in them?
     
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  12. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Many parallels between Zoroastrianism and Judaism and Christianity are exagarated. Satan is not depicted as a God in the book of Job either in the Christian or Jewish interpretation. Claims of the Old Testament borrowing from Persian religions are questionable. Jesus Vs Zoroaster – Debunking The Alleged Parallels | Reasons for Jesus

     
    #932 Skywalker, Jan 16, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2021
  13. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    This is really not all that difficult, but we have covered this ground before. God reveals religions through Messengers but there are two problems: First, regarding the older religions there were never any original scriptures so we cannot know exactly what those Messengers said. Second, the religious followers misinterpret those scriptures, partly because they did not understand them and also because there was never an appointed interpreter of those scriptures. Of course these are no longer a problem because we now have the original scriptures that Baha'u'llah wrote, and we have appointed interpreters of those scriptures.
    That's right, as I just said above. The fact that there is no original message written by the Messenger means that we cannot know exactly what that Messenger said, so we have to go with the scriptures we have and trust them, although we should realize they are not word-for-word what the Messenger said. When I say they added things to the religion I mean that they interpreted the scriptures and they made assumptions that are not supported by the actual verses. I am finding that to be the case more and more, the more I converse with Jews and Christians. They make assumptions as to what verses mean when they really don;t know.
    No, progressive revelation is not that simple, and Baha'is do not say that one religion leads to the next in chronological order. Rather . it means humanity is 'progressing', evolving spiritually, over time. If you still do not understand progressive revelation, I suggest you read this book, which is online free to read: The Heart of the Gospel
    Yes it is true that the new dispensation abrogates the previous dispensation, but no religion can ever be abrogated, since all revealed religions came from God, so they were all valid for the ages in which they were revealed. Here is the caveat: Prior to the Baha'i Faith, the followers of the older religions had not been told about progressive revelation, thus they did not know about it; so those religious believers were not responsible to recognize the Messenger that came after their Messenger, and the religion that was established in His name.

    And even today, if a Jew or Christian or any other religion never heard of the Baha'i Faith, then how would they know what Baha'u'llah taught about their duty to recognize all the Messengers, since they all came from the one true God? But once they know about the Baha'i Faith and the message of Baha'u'llah they are accountable to God to recognize all the Messengers and religions they established, not only their own religion. Baha'is are charged with telling them and then the ball is in their court.
    You raise a good point, and as I just explained above, before Baha'u'llah came and explained that all religions are one and they all came from the one true God, there was no way the religious believers could have known that. I will now add that God ever intended for the religious believers living in the past to adhere to any religion other than their own, because it would me unjust for God to expect that of them. After all, their scriptures do say that they are the only true religion, such as when Jesus says He is the Only Way to the Father. So, before Baha'u'llah came there was a reason for them to believe Jesus meant that He was the Only Way for all time, but now there is no reason to KEEP believing that, and no excuse if they have heard of the Bahai Faith, because Baha'u'llah explained that no religion is the Only Way for all time, that time marches on and God sends a new Messenger to suit the needs of the present age.
     
    #933 Trailblazer, Jan 16, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2021
  14. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    No, as I just explained to you in my previous post, religious people living back in the days before Baha'u'llah came were not obligated to recognize any religion or any Messengers other than the one they believed in, which was usually the religion that was passed down to them through the previous generation.

    Only now that we have been told about progressive revelation are religious believers obligated to accept all the religions that were revealed by the one true God. But the problem is that even when they are told that there is only one true God who revealed all the religions, most people STILL reject that teaching and cling to their older religion.
     
  15. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Point of clarification: we didn't have infallible "Messengers" when the Torah was given. They were considered prophets, but were not considered God-like or infallible. This idea of flawless human "Messengers" was invented with Christ, and was expanded by Islam.

    But if people are not deified, then there is no need for new "Messengers". Simple human intellectual and moral progress is all that's needed.
     
    #935 dybmh, Jan 16, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2021
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  16. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    It's not a problem for Jewish people. Maybe the problem is just in your imagination.
     
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  17. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    That is totally unfair and unjust. I would be very happy to have a Jew explain to me why they reject Jesus, Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah. So far, all a Jew has ever said is that it because Jesus and Baha'u'llah did not fulfill the Messianic prophecies, but that is not a fact, it is a personal opinion, and as such it is debatable. And what about Muhammad, why do Jews reject Muhammad? He never claimed to be the Messiah so that cannot be the reason.

    But apparently Jews do not want to discuss or debate about the Bahai Faith. It seems to me that as soon as they see they cannot win the debate, they bail out. It is that time that they normally either ignore my posts or they start casting aspersions. This is totally predictable behavior and I experienced the same thing on Delphi Forums for the five years I was there before I came to this forum.

    At least Christians are willing to engage in and honest conversation, but that has never been the case with any Jews. Christians try to defend their turf whereas Jews just cast aspersions or walk away, so what am I to think?

    i just report what I have experienced and I never lie. The evidence that I tried to engage with a Jewish person in an honest dialogue -- after I was engaged by him, not before -- is all on is thread, and then I got accused of preaching just because I was explaining my beliefs. That is so unjust.

    Except for the fact that you are here, I don't even know why I am still on this thread. Do you see any other Baha'is here? I will also remind you that it was not me who started this thread.
     
  18. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    That is not what I said. I said a sincere seeker would want to know what the verse really means, rather than just assuming or insisting they know what it means.
    Jesus never said that. The Gospel authors wrote stories that say that Jesus said that. It's laughable that anyone would believe those words came from Jesus because that is logically impossible..
    You can believe whatever you want to believe, but Jesus is not coming back to earth. There is absolutely no basis for believing that Jesus is going to return to earth in the same body because it does not say that anywhere in the New Testament. No, those verses are not literal and Christians have completely misinterpreted what the Bible says about the return of Christ.
     
  19. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Nonsense: I've explained it.

    Denial of Baha'u'llah is because he wrote that Israel is satanic. Post #3

    How many Manifestations of Holiness, how many Revealers of the light everlasting, have appeared since the time of Moses, and yet Israel, wrapt in the densest veils of satanic fancy and false imaginings, is still expectant that the idol of her own handiwork will appear with such signs as she herself hath conceived!

    (The Kitáb-i-Íqán)
    www.bahai.org/r/570360520
    Also claiming that any person is God-like and infallible is foolish. No one and nothing is perfect except for God. Attributing this perfection onto the Universal House of Justice is a terrible idea.

    Jesus can futher be rejected because no one really knows what Jesus said or did. Going by the story in the Christian bible he was not perfect. There is no reason to believe that he was a flawless messenger of God.
     
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  20. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    No, I do not think that Paul changed the foundation that Jesus laid, all Paul did was to replace much of what Jesus taught with new teachings.

    Jesus laid the “foundation” for the future Kingdom of God on earth by spiritualizing humanity, and without the foundation Jesus laid with His teachings the Kingdom would not be possible. Jesus was also the Herald of the Kingdom, the Harbinger who came to announce the coming of the Kingdom.

    By Kingdom, I am referring to an actual “physical” Kingdom of God in the material world, a sociopolitical system, a new government and a new society, the Kingdom of God on earth. The Kingdom of God that is within us has to exist within the hearts of man in order to prepare them to build the Kingdom of God on earth.

    Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

    From: Christ and Baha'u'llah

    The Kingdom in the Bible . . . . . . . . . . . .14
    Jesus Christ, Herald of the Kingdom . . . . . . 20

    Jesus created a power of perceiving God which was new, and in order that it might operate clearly, had to cleanse the spirit of man from all worldly encumbrances. Virtue becomes detachment from the world, sin attachment to it. Jesus demanded this sacrifice — losing the life of the world for the life of the spirit, but He made God so attractive, so joyous, loving, powerful, that the Christian was ready to abandon all for Him, and for Christ Who revealed Him.

    Thus the tremendous and fearsome Deity of the Old Testament wins men's hearts in the New. We read of the poor sparrow whose fall was watched by a loving Father, of the flower of the field and the bird of the air, and the tenderest stories that ever have won men's hearts — the prodigal son and the good Samaritan.

    A new quality of love now characterizes the Kingdom, a love which united the believers not only with God, but with each other, and even extended to enemies and "them that hate you." "That ye love one another" became the test of Christian discipleship.

    The supreme ideal of this love was, as shown in John, the relationship between Christ and the Father, and though revealed in the most simple language and the plainest words, stands as the highest expression of Divine love in scripture.

    The result was that Jesus' teachings let loose upon the soul and heart of man a spiritual power such as never had been known in the world before. Historians have said that Jesus' teaching has done more to elevate human nature and civilization than all the laws of legislators and the disquisitions of philosophers combined. By releasing religious energies measured to the needs of the hour and the people, He opened the way to the Kingdom of God in men's hearts. New affections and aspirations, hopes and loyalties were brought into being and the whole moral world was carried into a state of flux.

    Christ and Baha'u'llah, Chapter 4
     
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