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How can the Jew reject, Jesus, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah?

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
That's still the same phenomenon of another person who isn't Christ saying he is Christ, because Bahullah doesn't have the body of Jesus.
The body of Jesus was just a body and the body is not the person. The soul is the person himself, and the body is just a vehicle that carries the soul around while we are alive in a physical body. After the body dies it returns to dust, and the spirit passes to the spiritual world.

Baha'u'llah never claimed to be Christ, he clearly stated that He was a different man with a different mission on earth. Baha'u'llah means the Glory of God in Arabic, and the Glory of God is mentioned in many Old Testament prophecies.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
The body of Jesus was just a body and the body is not the person. The soul is the person himself, and the body is just a vehicle that carries the soul around while we are alive in a physical body. After the body dies it returns to dust, and the spirit passes to the spiritual world.

Baha'u'llah never claimed to be Christ, he clearly stated that He was a different man with a different mission on earth. Baha'u'llah means the Glory of God in Arabic, and the Glory of God is mentioned in many Old Testament prophecies.

I believe that anything that adds details to Jesus coming on the clouds and descending from heaven, adds to the Bible, because the Bible is literal and simple. The Bible says not to add to God's words. Why would Jesus coming in the body of Bahullah not add to the Bible?

The Second Coming of Jesus: Metaphor or Literal? | Reasons for Jesus

As we can see, the second coming is described by Jesus as being a physical descent from heaven accompanied by angels, an experience that will cause people to literally caught up in the air with him and will cause intense grief and mourning to those who rejected him. It is the end of human history as we know it.

In this video we look more deeply at the idea of the metaphorical second coming and how it compares to the words of Jesus himself:

 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I believe that many beliefs about hell aren't necessarily the truth. I believe that hell is being alone for eternity, separated from God. How can a loving God send people to hell?
Yes, that is the official Baha'i belief regarding hell, it is separation from God. I had added my personal opinion to the previous post.

Many Christian beliefs are very similar to Baha'i beliefs, no doubt why I have an affinity for Christianity, even though I disagree with certain Christian beliefs and doctrines.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I believe that anything that adds details to Jesus coming on the clouds and descending from heaven, adds to the Bible, because the Bible is literal and simple. The Bible says not to add to God's words. Why would Jesus coming in the body of Bahullah not add to the Bible?

The Second Coming of Jesus: Metaphor or Literal? | Reasons for Jesus
I do not believe that the Son of man coming in the clouds verses mean what Christians believe they mean.
Christians interpret those verses literally but Baha'is believe that "clouds" is a metaphor for clouded judgment.

To explain in brief, I believe that ‘Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven’ means that the return of the Christ Spirit promised in the Bible will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God, and will appear in the form of a human being. The term “heaven” means loftiness and exaltation. Although Jesus was delivered from the womb of His mother, in reality He descended from the heaven of the will of God. Though dwelling on this earth, His true habitation was the realms above. While walking among mortals on earth, Jesus soared in the heaven of the divine presence.

Baha’u’llah explained the meaning of clouds in The Kitáb-i-Íqán. The term “clouds” as used in the Bible means those things that cloud our judgment and prevent us from seeing what is really there. Just like the physical clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, the desires of men hindered men from recognizing the return of Christ.

To further explain the teaming of clouds, Baha’is believe that the term “clouds” as used in the Bible means those things that are contrary to the ways and desires of men. They signify, in one sense, the annulment of laws, the abrogation of former Dispensations, the repeal of rituals and customs current among men. In another sense, they mean the appearance of a Manifestation of God in the image of mortal man, with such human limitations as eating and drinking, poverty and riches, sleeping and waking, and such other things as cast doubt in the minds of men, and cause them to turn away. These “veils” to recognition of a Manifestation of God are symbolically referred to as “clouds.” Just like the physical clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, these things hinder the souls of men from recognizing the light of the Manifestation of God.

Thus the meaning of clouds is symbolic, not literal. Their judgment was clouded. Christians were looking for the same man Jesus in the same body that resurrected and ascended to appear in the actual physical clouds in the sky with power and great glory, trumpets and angels, but when that did not happen that way they rejected Baha’u’llah. However, if one looks at what happened before, during and after Baha’u’llah appeared there is not one prophecy that cannot be applied to Him.

Thus when Jesus said “ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven” we believe that means that His Return, the next Manifestation of God, would reside in the loftiness and exaltation of the divine presence (heaven), and would come down to earth by the will of God in the clouds (veiled from the sight of most people), like a thief in the night.

The reason Christians missed recognizing Baha’u’llah in the mid-19th century (and still do not recognize Him) is because they are waiting for the “literal fulfillment” of those Son of man in the clouds of heaven prophecies. They expect the same physical body of Jesus to come floating down on a physical cloud from heaven, but I am sure you already know this since it is a basic Christian belief.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
I do not believe that the Son of man coming in the clouds verses mean what Christians believe they mean.
Christians interpret those verses literally but Baha'is believe that "clouds" is a metaphor for clouded judgment.

To explain in brief, I believe that ‘Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven’ means that the return of the Christ Spirit promised in the Bible will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God, and will appear in the form of a human being. The term “heaven” means loftiness and exaltation. Although Jesus was delivered from the womb of His mother, in reality He descended from the heaven of the will of God. Though dwelling on this earth, His true habitation was the realms above. While walking among mortals on earth, Jesus soared in the heaven of the divine presence.

Baha’u’llah explained the meaning of clouds in The Kitáb-i-Íqán. The term “clouds” as used in the Bible means those things that cloud our judgment and prevent us from seeing what is really there. Just like the physical clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, the desires of men hindered men from recognizing the return of Christ.

To further explain the teaming of clouds, Baha’is believe that the term “clouds” as used in the Bible means those things that are contrary to the ways and desires of men. They signify, in one sense, the annulment of laws, the abrogation of former Dispensations, the repeal of rituals and customs current among men. In another sense, they mean the appearance of a Manifestation of God in the image of mortal man, with such human limitations as eating and drinking, poverty and riches, sleeping and waking, and such other things as cast doubt in the minds of men, and cause them to turn away. These “veils” to recognition of a Manifestation of God are symbolically referred to as “clouds.” Just like the physical clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, these things hinder the souls of men from recognizing the light of the Manifestation of God.

Thus the meaning of clouds is symbolic, not literal. Their judgment was clouded. Christians were looking for the same man Jesus in the same body that resurrected and ascended to appear in the actual physical clouds in the sky with power and great glory, trumpets and angels, but when that did not happen that way they rejected Baha’u’llah. However, if one looks at what happened before, during and after Baha’u’llah appeared there is not one prophecy that cannot be applied to Him.

Thus when Jesus said “ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven” we believe that means that His Return, the next Manifestation of God, would reside in the loftiness and exaltation of the divine presence (heaven), and would come down to earth by the will of God in the clouds (veiled from the sight of most people), like a thief in the night.

The reason Christians missed recognizing Baha’u’llah in the mid-19th century (and still do not recognize Him) is because they are waiting for the “literal fulfillment” of those Son of man in the clouds of heaven prophecies. They expect the same physical body of Jesus to come floating down on a physical cloud from heaven, but I am sure you already know this since it is a basic Christian belief.

There is nothing in the Bible that indicates that. We don't know that it doesn't mean clouded judgement, but we also don't know that it doesn't mean Jesus coming on the clouds. I believe that the literal interpretation is the simplest.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Why would good works forgive us? The Bible says by grace we are saved. IF someone committed a crime and bribed a judge to avoid punishment, they would only make their punishment worse.
I did not say that good works buy us forgiveness. I said that according to Jesus the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Maybe that means that by God's grace we can be forgiven anything except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, but it does not say we can do anything we want to and we are are saved, as long as we do not blaspheme against the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 12:31-32 “So I tell you, every sin and blasphemy can be forgiven—except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which will never be forgiven. Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, either in this world or in the world to come.”

In those verses Jesus said it is unforgivable to hate the Holy Spirit (light of God) and one will not be forgiven in this life or in the afterlife.

I can only surmise why that is unforgivable. It is a Baha’i belief that heaven and hell are states of the soul, not geographical locations. Heaven is nearness to God and hell is distance from God. It is impossible to come near to God if one is repelled by the light of God because God does not force His love upon anyone. God only draws those near to Him those who reach out for His mercy. If one hates God they will not reach out for God’s mercy and they will thus be distant from God; in such a state they will make their own hell. Maybe that correlates with the unforgivable sin.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
I did not say that good works buy us forgiveness. I said that according to Jesus the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Maybe that means that by God's grace we can be forgiven anything except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, but it does not say we can do anything we want to and we are are saved, as long as we do not blaspheme against the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 12:31-32 “So I tell you, every sin and blasphemy can be forgiven—except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which will never be forgiven. Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, either in this world or in the world to come.”

In those verses Jesus said it is unforgivable to hate the Holy Spirit (light of God) and one will not be forgiven in this life or in the afterlife.

I can only surmise why that is unforgivable. It is a Baha’i belief that heaven and hell are states of the soul, not geographical locations. Heaven is nearness to God and hell is distance from God. It is impossible to come near to God if one is repelled by the light of God because God does not force His love upon anyone. God only draws those near to Him those who reach out for His mercy. If one hates God they will not reach out for God’s mercy and they will thus be distant from God; in such a state they will make their own hell. Maybe that correlates with the unforgivable sin.

I believe that the Holy Spirit being the light of God supports the plurality of the Trinity. Jesus and the Spirit didn't know when Jesus returns-only the Father.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
There is nothing in the Bible that indicates that. We don't know that it doesn't mean clouded judgement, but we also don't know that it doesn't mean Jesus coming on the clouds. I believe that the literal interpretation is the simplest.
Of course that is not explained in the Bible. God tests His servants so God wanted Christians to figure that out themselves; but not without help, because the explanation was given by Baha'u'llah in The Kitab-i-Iqan. I posted the quotes from that book on another thread not long age.

#169 Trailblazer
#170 Trailblazer
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Of course that is not explained in the Bible. God tests His servants so God wanted Christians to figure that out themselves; but not without help, because the explanation was given by Baha'u'llah in The Kitab-i-Iqan. I posted the quotes from that book on another thread not long age.

#169 Trailblazer
#170 Trailblazer

I believe that Jesus descending from heaven and coming with great glory and coming with his angels and people seeing him in the clouds and sky hints at a literal second coming and coming on the clouds.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I believe that the Holy Spirit being the light of God supports the plurality of the Trinity. Jesus and the Spirit didn't know when Jesus returns-only the Father.
It does show that the Holy Spirit, Jesus, and God are separate entities....

Bahais believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, so in that sense we believe in a Trinity; but we do not believe these three are part of God. Rather, they are separate entities that work together. That is explained in this chapter: 27: THE TRINITY

Some people get lost in that chapter, so I wrote up a brief encapsulation of it;

There is only One God.

The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God, an emanation from God. God is like the sun and the Holy Spirit is like the rays of the sun. God remains in His own high place, and does not ever descend to earth.

The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God which became visible and evident in Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ was like a clear mirror, and God became visible in the mirror, but God did not descend into the mirror. This is why Christ said, “The Father is in the Son,” meaning that the God was visible and manifest in this mirror.

The Comforter, Counselor, Helper, and Advocate are all descriptive terms or titles used for the Bounty of God that came to us through the Holy Spirit.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
It does show that the Holy Spirit, Jesus, and God are separate entities....

Bahais believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, so in that sense we believe in a Trinity; but we do not believe these three are part of God. Rather, they are separate entities that work together. That is explained in this chapter: 27: THE TRINITY

Some people get lost in that chapter, so I wrote up a brief encapsulation of it;

There is only One God.

The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God, an emanation from God. God is like the sun and the Holy Spirit is like the rays of the sun. God remains in His own high place, and does not ever descend to earth.

The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God which became visible and evident in Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ was like a clear mirror, and God became visible in the mirror, but God did not descend into the mirror. This is why Christ said, “The Father is in the Son,” meaning that the God was visible and manifest in this mirror.

The Comforter, Counselor, Helper, and Advocate are all descriptive terms or titles used for the Bounty of God that came to us through the Holy Spirit.

Genesis 1:26-28 mentioning let us make man in our image doesn't mean that the members of the Trinity are separate entities. The plurality of God is not separate entities that work together.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I believe that Jesus descending from heaven and coming with great glory and coming with his angels and people seeing him in the clouds and sky hints at a literal second coming and coming on the clouds.
I believe that all those verses were metaphorical, not literal. There can be no second coming of Jesus in the clouds because the body of Jesus is not up above the clouds. Jesus is in the spiritual world (heaven) where His soul took on a different form, a spiritual body. It cannot return to earth since spiritual bodies are not in this world. That is one reason Jesus said He would be no longer in this world.

“The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 157

“The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
It does show that the Holy Spirit, Jesus, and God are separate entities....

Bahais believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, so in that sense we believe in a Trinity; but we do not believe these three are part of God. Rather, they are separate entities that work together. That is explained in this chapter: 27: THE TRINITY

Some people get lost in that chapter, so I wrote up a brief encapsulation of it;

There is only One God.

The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God, an emanation from God. God is like the sun and the Holy Spirit is like the rays of the sun. God remains in His own high place, and does not ever descend to earth.

The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God which became visible and evident in Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ was like a clear mirror, and God became visible in the mirror, but God did not descend into the mirror. This is why Christ said, “The Father is in the Son,” meaning that the God was visible and manifest in this mirror.

The Comforter, Counselor, Helper, and Advocate are all descriptive terms or titles used for the Bounty of God that came to us through the Holy Spirit.

Do you think Bounty of God and plurality of God are different? I believe that the different functions within the Trinity are the plurality of God. Woman, The Holy Spirit Of The Family — by Pastor Jack Hyles

Genesis 2:21-24, "And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; and the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made He a woman, and brought her unto the man. And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh."

"Our Heavenly Father, we come to speak on this vital subject. I'd love to be a help and a blessing. I pray that for some ladies this will be life-changing. May we give our attention to this truth and to Thee. In Jesus' Name, Amen."

The Lord chose to compare a family with the Trinity. In so doing, He called the head of the family, the man, after His own name, Father. We pray, "Our Father, Which art in Heaven." Then He likened the son or children in the family to His own Son, the second named Person in the Trinity. Hence, we have in the family a person who represents God the Father, and we have a person who represents God the Son. By process of elimination, we come to realize who represents the Holy Spirit in the family. There is only one person left, and that's the lady. That means that you--the woman, wife, mother--represent the Holy Spirit. If you would like to find your duties in life, just find in the Bible what the Holy Spirit is supposed to do. He comforts; so does Mother. He teaches; so does Mother. He instructs; so does Mother. He leads; so does Mother. Think of all the ministries the Holy Spirit has in the world. He's the unseen One; so is Mother. He is the one Who gives the others attention; so does Mother. If you want to know what your duties are in the family, all you have to do is find out the duties of the Holy Spirit in the Trinity, for you are the Holy Spirit of the home.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
I believe that all those verses were metaphorical, not literal. There can be no second coming of Jesus in the clouds because the body of Jesus is not up above the clouds. Jesus is in the spiritual world (heaven) where His soul took on a different form, a spiritual body. It cannot return to earth since spiritual bodies are not in this world. That is one reason Jesus said He would be no longer in this world.

“The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 157

“The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194

Jesus could come in the clouds in his glorified body. The body of Jesus doesn't live in the clouds, Jesus lives in heaven, but he could come down on the clouds. Saul saw the spiritual body of the prophet Samuel.

Jesus said he was no longer in this world because he was talking about going to the cross. He wasn't talking about the second coming.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Jesus could come in the clouds in his glorified body. The body of Jesus doesn't live in the clouds, Jesus lives in heaven, but he could come down on the clouds. Saul saw the spiritual body of the prophet Samuel.

Jesus said he was no longer in this world because he was talking about going to the cross. He wasn't talking about the second coming.
There is no such thing as a glorified body. That is not in the Bible, it is a Christian belief that came about from misinterpreting what Paul said about the natural body and the spiritual body, but we have already covered this ground.

No longer in the world means no longer in the world. It does not matter when Jesus said it.
That is why Jesus never returned, yet the Christians keep waiting.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
There is no such thing as a glorified body. That is not in the Bible, it is a Christian belief that came about from misinterpreting what Paul said about the natural body and the spiritual body, but we have already covered this ground.

No longer in the world means no longer in the world. It does not matter when Jesus said it.
That is why Jesus never returned, yet the Christians keep waiting.

No longer in this world doesn't mean there is no second coming. When Jesus said it matters because context always matters.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
There is no such thing as a glorified body. That is not in the Bible, it is a Christian belief that came about from misinterpreting what Paul said about the natural body and the spiritual body, but we have already covered this ground.

No longer in the world means no longer in the world. It does not matter when Jesus said it.
That is why Jesus never returned, yet the Christians keep waiting.

The glorified body is related to the redemption of the body. The Redemption of Our Body

I love this Scripture. The day we became saved, our soul was redeemed. God gave to us a new heart. God gave to us the Holy Spirit. God adopted us spiritually into His heavenly family. We partook of the divine nature, which is Christ in us. The Bible calls these, “the firstfruits of the Spirit.”

However, our body has not yet been redeemed, but praise be to God, one day at the Rapture it will be! 1st Corinthians 15:51,52, "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." Amen! We shall all be CHANGED! The Rapture could happen at any time. It is the next event on God's prophetic calendar.

Romans 8:23 says that "the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now." There is so much pain and suffering in the world because of mankind's sin and evil. Look at all the starving children in the world today, while American's throw away 14% of all their food.1 Look at all the millions-upon-millions of soldiers killed in needless wars waged by greedy and power-hungry elite families. There is so much sadness in recorded history, so much treachery and human suffering. Oh, how we need the Lord to return. Oh, how we lament as Christian believers for the Lord to come back and redeem our corrupt mortal bodies from all the sadness, loneliness, physical and emotional pain, frustration, temptation and sufferings which are inherent to the flesh. At the Rapture, our physical body will be CHANGED the Bible says, into an incorruptible body that is incapable of pain, suffering and the miseries associated with the sinful flesh.
 
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