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Featured How can the Jew reject, Jesus, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Tony Bristow-Stagg, Dec 30, 2020.

  1. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    No, I said that humanity as a whole is progressing spiritually, not that the religions are progressing spiritually.
    Moreover, within any given religion there might be people who are more spiritually evolved than others and that is a human difference, it has nothing to do with the religion.
    We don't talk about Hindu Avatars because little is known about them and because as the world's oldest religion, Hinduism is very far back in history.

    Hinduism is the world's oldest religion, according to many scholars, with roots and customs dating back more than 4,000 years. Today, with about 900 million followers, Hinduism is the third-largest religion behind Christianity and Islam. Roughly 95 percent of the world's Hindus live in India.Oct 6, 2017
    Hinduism - Origins, Facts & Beliefs - HISTORY

    Moreover we do not have any authentic scripture or anything even close to authentic in order to verify the existence of any Avatars. And how relevant is this to the modern world?

    By contrast, the Torah is much more authentic than any Hindu scriptures, and also it is the cornerstone of the one true God belief, the foundation, so it is much closer to Baha'i beliefs about God than Hinduism. Probably the one true God was not revealed that long ago because humans were not yet ready to grasp the belief and that is in accordance with progressive revelation.
     
    #961 Trailblazer, Jan 16, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2021
  2. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    A teaching updates its human advised conscious evolution.

    In a non science machine reactive status.

    Using nuclear temple pyramid....to its dismantled machine science occult use.

    And then realise in an evolving life how wrong you were

    Is to live today...say everyone is an equal...we are one humanity. We all have the same parent..two human parents and believe in life continuance.

    Without coercive history.

    If a reactive jewEL...power EL God changed life as a human. The reaction stopped it was finished.

    Common sense.

    If you personally live inside CH arise heavenly body O God planet earth history. You do.

    If the heavenly spirit gases evolve mass continually in space womb by saviour messenger wandering star bodies. It does. Heavens increase its mass. We get healthier in higher ground water holding.

    Common science teaching. Common sense. We use common sense first you should realise. Science a chosen human applied condition.

    Scientific relativity about evolution conditions. The messenger data kept documented updating evaluations.

    Evolution is a scientific realisation teaching.
     
  3. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    That is questionable. Baha'is have Moses as a Manifestation of God, thus a polished mirror, but the others might not be considered as such. Some of the other ones that Baha'u'llah wrote about in the Kitab-i-Iqan might have only been Prophets, not Manifestations of God. As I don't want to mislead any Jewish readers, below is what Bahais believe about the two kinds of Prophets.

    Question.—How many kinds of Prophets are there?

    Answer.—Universally, the Prophets are of two kinds. One are the independent Prophets Who are followed; the other kind are not independent and are themselves followers.

    The independent Prophets are the lawgivers and the founders of a new cycle. Through Their appearance the world puts on a new garment, the foundations of religion are established, and a new book is revealed. Without an intermediary They receive bounty from the Reality of the Divinity, and Their illumination is an essential illumination. They are like the sun which is luminous in itself: the light is its essential necessity; it does not receive light from any other star. These Dawning-places of the morn of Unity are the sources of bounty and the mirrors of the Essence of Reality.

    The other Prophets are followers and promoters, for they are branches and not independent; they receive the bounty of the independent Prophets, and they profit by the light of the Guidance of the universal Prophets. They are like the moon, which is not luminous and radiant in itself, but receives its light from the sun.

    The Manifestations of universal Prophethood Who appeared independently are, for example, Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh. But the others who are followers and promoters are like Solomon, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel. For the independent Prophets are founders; They establish a new religion and make new creatures of men; They change the general morals, promote new customs and rules, renew the cycle and the Law. Their appearance is like the season of spring, which arrays all earthly beings in a new garment, and gives them a new life.

    With regard to the second sort of Prophets who are followers, these also promote the Law of God, make known the Religion of God, and proclaim His word. Of themselves they have no power and might, except what they receive from the independent Prophets.


    43: THE TWO CLASSES OF PROPHETS, Some Answered Questions, pp. 164-165
     
  4. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Who says I am trying to win a debate?
    Much of the Bible just so happens to be metaphorical.

    That is not true only of the Baha'is, so it is not fair. All the religious believers say what they believe.
    Baha'is believe that Baha'u'llah was the Comforter.
    Christians believe that the Comforter was the Holy Spirit that was sent at Pentecost.
    One of us is wrong.
     
  5. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    How many times are we going to go over this?
    I told you that some of it is plain language and within the context of all the other chapters of John it is obvious that Jesus never planned to return to earth.

    That is not comparable to the embellished gospel stories that say Jesus rose from the dead.
    No, logically God could noy have brought Jesus back to life.

    How many more years are you going to cover this same old tired ground, until I finally leave the forum? If you are trying to get rid of me you are doing a very good job.

    You know what Baha'is believe about the Bible because I just posted it to you -- again.
    No we do not believe in the doctrines of the church and we do not believe that Jesus rose from the dead or that Jesus is coming back on the clouds -- but we believe what Jesus taught. This is really not that difficult to understand. The Church misinterpreted the Bible early on and taught things that were false, but that does not mean that the spiritual teachings of Jesus were not true. The false prophets referred to below is the Church. The man who wrote the book from which I am quoting was a Christian for 40 years before he resigned his orders and became Baha'i.

    “As Jesus prophesied, the false prophets contrived to change the essential meaning of the Gospel so that it became quite different from that which the Bible recorded or Jesus taught. (Matt. Vii 15-23 and see pp. 11, 12.)

    Well might Christ warn His followers that false prophets would arise and misinterpret His teachings so as to delude even the most earnest and intelligent of His believers: from early times Christians have disputed about Christian truth in councils, in sects, in wars.

    To sum up, if Christians say “our acts may be wrong,” they say truly. If they say “however our Gospel is right” they are quite wrong. The false prophets have corrupted the Gospel as successfully as they have the deeds and lives of Christian people.”


    The False Prophets, pp. 25-30
     
  6. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Nope. They're facts. As I said the revelations are inconsistent. You even confirm it with your statement below:

    If the Baha'i faith "cleared up what Christians might have gotten wrong" that shows that their approach to the covenant was regressive.

    Nope, it's regressive for several reasons.

    If one compares the Jewish approach to Hell, Satan, Evil, God as a Trinity, worshipping Jesus, to the Christian approach to the Baha'i approach, then it's easy to see that the Christian revelation is regressive. The Baha'i faith corrects all of these and makes them closer to the original mainstrean Jewish beliefs. The revelation from the Christian bible is regressive, then the Baha'i revelation is progressive on these issues.

    So, my belief that the revelation from the Christian bible is regressive has nothing to do with whether or not "the Jews had the only and last revelation from God". It's based on comparing Jewish beliefs, Christian beliefs, and Baha'i beliefs.

    I understand, but, why you believe it doesn't really matter. The reason it would be needed is because Baha'i incorrectly assign infallibility to Moses. If Moses is not deemed infallible then progressive revelation is not needed. The social teachings and laws do not need to be updated from God. All that's needed is simple human intellectual and moral advancement.


    This is bigoted. Old religions are not automatically bad. A negative opinion is justified when it is the result of specific actions taken by individuals. Grouping all members of all old religions together and judging them negativley, claiming they need to unify without giving specific reasons is unjust. I'm guessing this is something Baha'u'llah teaches, and you accept it as true, but you don't realize how bigoted it is.

    That's nice, but, remember according to Baha'u'llah Jesus annulled the Sabbath.

    Exodus 31:16 clearly states that the Sabbath is a B'rit Olam an "Everlasting Covenant". So we have another inconsistency. It seems like we Jews are better off ignoring progressive revelation and continuing to observe Torah.
    As I said before, both approaches have their merits and their flaws. The problem with the Baha'i approach is that it reduces the Messiah to an insignificant figure. At that point, if he isn't involved in fulfillment of any Messianic prophecies, why even call him The Messiah?
    The simplest solution is that each religion has a savior archetype in its legends and myths.
    If these teachings include or encourage bigotry, and that's how it appears, then it spoils the entire message.
     
    #966 dybmh, Jan 16, 2021
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  7. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    If I recall this comes from Islam. It's an important part of their theology that Muhammad is perfect, but I'm not sure why the others need to be perfect as well.
     
    #967 dybmh, Jan 16, 2021
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  8. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Bahá’u’lláh referred to several historical figures as Manifestations. They include Adam, Noah, Zoroaster, Krishna, Abraham, Moses, Buddha, Jesus and Muhammad. The Báb, as well as Himself, were included in this definition. Thus religious history is interpreted as a series of dispensations, where each Manifestation brings a somewhat broader and more advanced revelation, suited for the time and place in which it was expressed.​
    Is this source accurate?
     
  9. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    You mentioned debate.
     
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  10. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    No, we are not in the last days. Most likely not even close. We are in the best time in human history. There is no sign of the troubles (battle of God and Magog) unique to the time before the Messianic era.
     
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  11. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    And everything Baha'is say is new and fresh? Baha'is say they have the truth. Baha'is say their prophet has fulfilled all prophecies of every "revealed" religion. Same stuff over and over again. Then, when someone asks for proof, Baha'is offer up the same few verses, out of context, that they believe to be proof. Which is questioned and usually rejected by the other person. Then the Baha'i gives the same reasons over and over again why the Baha'i interpretation is correct. Like Jesus never said he was coming back. He said his work is finished. How many times have you quoted those same verses? Same thing with the Holy Spirit and the Comforter. You reject what Christians say about it and keep repeating again and again your same tired reason why the Comforter was a prophecy about Baha'u'llah. The Baha'is claims are huge. The Christ has come... more than 150 years ago. Really? Are you sure? Can you prove it? No. So it all talk. And more talk.
     
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  12. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I just looked up some Baha'is stuff about Adam but it made him and Eve metaphorical. But they still make him one of their manifestations?
     
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  13. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Christians have Gog and Magog and the battle of Armageddon in the Book of Revelation. What are the Jewish teachings and prophecies about those things?
     
  14. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I guess you do not watch much TV news. ;)
    That sounds very Christian. I did not know Jews had such beliefs. ;)
     
  15. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I do not know. What is the source?
     
  16. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    So what? That does not mean I am trying to "win" a debate.
     
  17. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Trailblazer said:
    How many more years are you going to cover this same old tired ground,


    I guess what I said flew right over your head.
    If I repeat myself it is only because I am responding to a post someone posted to me, and different people post to me. By contrast you just keep asking and saying the same things over and over and over again after I have responded to them over and over and over again.

    In case you have not noticed there are no Bahais left here who will even respond to the things you have said over and over and over and over again,.
     
  18. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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  19. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    So again, in this non-debate, you win. When a Baha'i is wrong it is a misinterpretation. When it's questionable, the other person's interpretation is wrong. And when it comes down to who has The Truth, Baha'is are always right, because Baha'u'llah is the manifestation for today, therefore, whatever he says is true and correct. If other religions have contradictory beliefs to the Baha'i Faith, those other religions are the ones that are wrong. You don't have to try and "win"... it's automatic. You've won before you start.
     
  20. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    It's worse than that. If the interpretation is Jewish, it's not simply that the interpretation is wrong, it's a satanic delusion. They demonize Jewish people.
     
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