Heaven

[InChrist]

OK, I understand. Even though they may believe in jesus as their saviour, they won't necessarily get into heaven.

There is a difference between saying one believes in Jesus and actually believing in Jesus. One is a true believer and the other is a Christian in name only or a hypocrite. The scriptures state repeatedly that a true believer's life will be changed and bring forth the fruit of the Spirit which are Christlike qualities: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, etc. In other words, someone who believes in Jesus practices what they preach.

How is this possible in all cases, though? If I murder someone, then later become a christian, how do I right the wrongs I have done to the family concerned?

[/quote]

It may not always be possible to make complete restoration, but in the example you gave above the murderer, now Christian, could apologize and show true remorse to the family and support the family financially, if possible. Besides that, any murderer, even one who becomes a Christian must face the legal consequences of prison or execution determined by a court of law.

 

[Muffled]

I actually find this idea that anything you do will be forgiven to be absolutely repugnant.

Rape kids, torture and murder women, ask for forgiveness on your death bed, and home free? NOPE!

I believe if there is no hope of forgiveness there is no need for repentence. Just keep on raping kids, torturing and murdering women because there is no hope that a change will create a better situation.

As for me, I repented not to receive forgiveness but because I wanted to be a better person. I believe anyone should want this also.

 

[Muffled]

Your expression of this concept sounds like retreat.

The expression I got was more like....kick the dust from your shoes as you leave them behind as a sign unto them.
Leaving someone behind is not retreat.

It is.... abandonment.

I believe God never completely abandons a person but He will stay away for a while if His efforts are futile. I believe He does what Paul says, hands then over to the devil.

 

[Muffled]

A well made film. Thanks for sharing it. The film was about an accident. My heart goes out to the killer. I would not in a million years condemn him for drinking and driving. If I did I would condemn myself and millions more. If I pronounced him guilty I would not be allowed to even drive. I get sleepy when I drive. Did you know that sleepy driving is as bad as drunk driving? By the look on the boys face it looks like he has suffered terribly. I am always conscious that my driving should be extra careful. I have told my children that they should be honest with me as I get old and not as capable and when I must surrender my license to drive they must not allow me to be stubborn as I know old people can be.

My roommate (when I ws young) was a drinker and ran his car into a tree. He claimed it was because he fell asleep. As a sober person I had the privelege of driving girls home from a party. See, I believe righteousness has its own reward, lol. I did run off the road once in a snowstorm falling asleep because the trip was long, 16 hours and the falling snow has a mesmerizing affect. Fortunately I was able to rock the car out of the snowbank or I might have frozen to death stuck on a lonely highway.

 

[savagewind]

I believe God never completely abandons a person but He will stay away for a while if His efforts are futile. I believe He does what Paul says, hands then over to the devil.

For the most part probably yes, it is true but there is written some things that point to total loss.

Mark 28 Verily I say unto you, that all sins shall be forgiven to the sons of men, and all the injurious speeches [with] which they may speak injuriously;
29 but whosoever shall speak injuriously against the Holy Spirit, to eternity has no forgiveness; but lies under the guilt of an everlasting sin

Hebrews 6:4-6 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[a] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

 

[savagewind]

I did run off the road once in a snowstorm falling asleep because the trip was long, 16 hours and the falling snow has a mesmerizing affect. Fortunately I was able to rock the car out of the snowbank or I might have frozen to death stuck on a lonely highway.

It sounds scary. Now there are phones. I have heard of people being stuck off the side of a deserted road. Of all the stories I have heard the driver either gets himself out (like you did) or help comes along in time. Heaven's help maybe? I have sensed sometimes that something supernatural and beneficent has assisted me to prevent death (like on the highway). On the highway going 70 a split second can mean death or life.

 

[George-ananda]

I have heard people say that a very bad person can be awarded heaven as long as he repents of his bad deeds before he dies and acknowledges God's superiority. But it is in contrast to what I believe that a person must do works of repentance to make up for the badness she has done. Matthew 3:8 I think most people will agree a dead person can not do that.

i think someone who believes in reincarnation is on the way to explaining that contrast better.

 

[savagewind]

i think someone who believes in reincarnation is on the way to explaining that contrast better.

OK please consider yourself welcome to explain it.

 

[savagewind]

Heaven as defined as the best possible destination wished for can certainly be defined as reincarnation by some people. You will not be going off topic I think.

If a person repents of his evil deeds before he dies can he expect a better reincarnated life than if he had not repented?

 

[George-ananda]

OK please consider yourself welcome to explain it.

OK, fair request. I wanted to know if anyone was really interested before I started.
When a person dies he spends time on an astral (heaven) plane enjoying the positive side of his being. So 'good' people have a more fulfilling heaven. But after a time we all realize we have more to grow and return in another body.

The status of that new life is determined not only by heredity and environment but also by the state of your soul.

So the answer to your OP is that heaven is not an all or nothing proposition. It has degrees depending on the quality of the person. So everyone experiences some heaven and some hell (lack of fulfillment and dispointment in heaven). But the good news is we all get smarter and better each time and eventually there is no reincarnation for us,

 

[savagewind]

The status of that new life is determined not only by heredity and environment but also by the state of your soul.

Is this determined by judgement or is it a natural system of nature like gravity?

 

[George-ananda]

Is this determined by judgement or is it a natural system of nature like gravity?

More like a natural system....It's called KARMA

Judgement shows all us normal people with good and bad points

 

[savagewind]

Thank you. It sounds kinder than people's vision of the bible god. Many people imagine The God will arrive to slay the unrepentant. And some people believe wicked people will be tortured and should be. Santana Dharma teaches a person will reap what is sown so will learn not to sow wicked things.

The trouble with it from my point of view is wicked people will still be free to make life impossible for the masses.

How is that reconciled according to Dharma?

 

[Ingledsva]

OK, fair request. I wanted to know if anyone was really interested before I started.
When a person dies he spends time on an astral (heaven) plane enjoying the positive side of his being. So 'good' people have a more fulfilling heaven. But after a time we all realize we have more to grow and return in another body.

The status of that new life is determined not only by heredity and environment but also by the state of your soul.

So the answer to your OP is that heaven is not an all or nothing proposition. It has degrees depending on the quality of the person. So everyone experiences some heaven and some hell (lack of fulfillment and dispointment in heaven). But the good news is we all get smarter and better each time and eventually there is no reincarnation for us,

I've read articles that say the Hebrew had the reincarnation idea. But I wanted to say that the sentences I've put in bold - are very close to what the Hebrew actually thought about the afterlife.

All people went to Sheol - some were closer to God - "in the bosom of Abraham" others not - "seeing the others and yearning." The real suffering was being so far from God.

They brought offerings to the grave, prayed for the dead, and also asked the dead to help the living. The Witch of Endor story is one of these.

 

[chinu]

I have heard people say that a very bad person can be awarded heaven as long as he repents of his bad deeds before he dies and acknowledges God's superiority. But it is in contrast to what I believe that a person must do works of repentance to make up for the badness she has done. Matthew 3:8 I think most people will agree a dead person can not do that.

A person can only be awarded heaven as long as he/she repents of his/her bad and good deeds too.. before he/she dies.

For example: If the bank balance is debit, there's an account, and If the bank balance is credit.. than also there's an account, Whereas.. Heaven is said to be an another country (place of peace), one cannot go there without clearing an account in this country (World)

The only difference in Bad and Good is.. Bad deeds are like.. Jail made of iron/steel, and Good deeds are like.. Jail made of Gold/diamond, But in both the cases the jail will remain the JAIL.

 

[George-ananda]

The trouble with it from my point of view is wicked people will still be free to make life impossible for the masses.

This may be true but what you need to keep in mind is that that evil-doers can only do their evil for a limited time in the big picture. In this picture a soul lives through many lives and eons. So there may be times when the soul was a doer of evil and times when a soul was the recipiant of evil (and it's balanced out thru karma).

 

[savagewind]

So there may be times when the soul was a doer of evil and times when a soul was the recipient of evil (and it's balanced out thru karma).

I see. Thank you.

How is the physical Earth affected by karma?

 

[George-ananda]

How is the physical Earth affected by karma?

I'm not clear on this question. Do you mean 'how does it work with people?' or do you mean the physical earth itself (like ecology, etc.)?

 

[savagewind]

I'm not clear on this question. Do you mean 'how does it work with people?' or do you mean the physical earth itself (like ecology, etc.)?

How does karma work for or against what man does to the earth? In other words it seems the Earth is being spoiled. Why is it receiving bad karma?

 

[Rise]

For the most part probably yes, it is true but there is written some things that point to total loss.

Mark 28 Verily I say unto you, that all sins shall be forgiven to the sons of men, and all the injurious speeches [with] which they may speak injuriously;
29 but whosoever shall speak injuriously against the Holy Spirit, to eternity has no forgiveness; but lies under the guilt of an everlasting sin

Hebrews 6:4-6 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[a] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

There is no single point or action that leads to total loss.

To reject the Holy Spirit is to reject the only thing that can bring you to salvation.
You can't be saved if you reject the savior as the source of your salvation.

Hebrews 6 is not saying that there is something a believer can do that makes them lose everything. He's talking about those who have chosen to reject God and walk away after already tasting the goodness of God, being given revelation, experiencing His power even.
Assuming they already know what the consequences are of not following God, what more can be done to bring them back to repentence?

Again this isn't an issue of there being a particular thing they've done that cannot be forgiven, but they are simply in a state of choosing to reject God and the truth of His salvation. If they reject the giver of salvation and the truth of that salvation then they aren't able to recieve it.