Heaven

[Walkntune]

Who can reason the forgiveness found in Gods grace as Jesus forgave the very ones who nailed him to the cross?

 

[starlite]

It is my opinion that if I was alive at the same time I heard of the crimes against innocent people that the Nazis did I would have to stand prepared to forgive anyone who repented of those crimes.

What happened here??
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Side point regarding Hilter...interesting read....[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Catholic Telegraph-Register, Cincinnati, Ohio, of September 1, 1939, follows herewith:[/FONT]
“[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]REARED AS CATHOLIC BUT VIOLATES FAITH SAYS CABLE TO POPE[/FONT]
“[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]250 Chicago Delegates from Nations, Religious Veteran’s Trade Union Bodies Join in Startling Appeal.[/FONT]
“[FONT=Arial, sans-serif](While we carry the article below as an interesting news item, we do not agree editorially that it is wise to seek action on such a grave matter as excommunication. It is best to leave to the church authorities all such matters. They know best all the points involved and the possible consequences.—EDITORS.)[/FONT]
“[FONT=Arial, sans-serif](By James Colvin)[/FONT]
“[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]CHICAGO (Exclusive)—An appeal has been made to Pius XII that Reichsfuehrer Adolph Hitler be excommunicated.[/FONT]
“[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The Resolution [was] sent in at the height of the European delegates of Nations, Religious, Veterans’, and Trade Union Groups, banded together in the United Organizations for the Defense of Democracy.[/FONT]
“[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Copies of the cablegram were sent to George Cardinal Mundelein of Chicago, William Cardinal O’Connell of Boston, Dennis Cardinal Dougherty of Philadelphia, and Archbishop Amleto Giovanni Cicognani Apostolic Delegate to United States at Washington.[/FONT]
“‘[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Adolph Hitler,’ it read in part, ‘was born of Catholic parents, was baptized a Catholic, and was reared and educated as such. While publicly by his words, deeds and orders he has become the world’s greatest menace to Christianity, and to civilization, he has not publicly up to the present time declared himself outside of the Church of his parents, and has not repudiated his membership therein, thus remaining subject to the laws and discipline of the Church.[/FONT]
“‘[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Firmly believing that the pronouncing of excommunication upon Adolph Hitler will help the cause of freedom, Christianity, Humanity, and civilization at this time, we hereby respectfully plead, appeal, and petition your Holiness publicly to proclaim and impose excommunication of Adolph Hitler.’[/FONT]
“[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]One of the speakers at a mass meeting declared: ‘we petition to make saints, thus recognizing the power of the Papacy. If such action holds good there, why not here?’ Included in the organizations represented at the meeting were units of the Polish National Alliance, branches of the Polish Roman Catholic Unions, and its joint Committee of Slovak organizations.”[/FONT]
“[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Before the Nazi dictator invaded Poland on September 1, 1939, to launch WW II, a plea was made by delegates from forty-eight Polish, Jewish, Slovakian and Lithuanian societies met at Chicago, Illinois, for the pontiff of Vatican City to excommunicate Adolf Hitler, but Pope Pius XII refused to excommunicate that war-mad “son of the church.”—Buffalo, N.Y., Evening Express as of August 29, 1939; The Catholic Telegraph-Register, of Cincinnati, Ohio, Section 2, as of September 1, 1939.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]
So why wasn't he excommunicated? Others have been for less serious crimes. Investigate...it certainly wasn't because God approved of what Hilter was doing.[/FONT]

 

[savagewind]

What happened here?

Is that a question? To cease badness, repent, and ask forgiveness should be responded to by the possibility of forgiveness. In life the possibility of forgiveness is much different than the possibility of forgiveness after life.

I have heard it said by religious persons that if Hitler was forgiven by God and appeared in Heaven who are we to question God's wisdom? The thread is not about crimes that should never be forgiven. It is about evil persons who it should never be granted them to be with God in Heaven.

Seems I can't be clear. My bad. I might try to respond in threads I have made. So here I am.

 

[savagewind]

Simply put there exists two sides. Destruction vs Salvation. Most people are on the side of destruction. If a person who exists on the side of destruction wakes up and decides it is wrong to be on the side of destruction so seeks the other side to assist it who can say "NO! the side of destruction is where you will STAY". The souls on the side of salvation MUST accept that God has accepted that one. BUT if the person is DEAD it no longer matters whose side he is on. THEN it will be OK I think to give up and ADMIT he will not be in Heaven.

I quit!

 

[starlite]

I was wondering the same thing as the Earth isn't going to last forever.

Really?...then what does this mean?

Psalms 37:9-11 and verse 29

New International Version (©1984)
the righteous will inherit the land and dwell in it forever.
New Living Translation (©2007)
The godly will possess the land and will live there forever.
English Standard Version (©2001)
The righteous shall inherit the land and dwell upon it forever.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
The righteous will inherit the land And dwell in it forever.
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
And the righteous ones inherit the Earth and dwell upon it for eternity.
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Righteous people will inherit the land and live there permanently.
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein forever.
American King James Version
The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.
American Standard Version
The righteous shall inherit the land, And dwell therein for ever.

 

[starlite]

Simply put there exists two sides. Destruction vs Salvation.
I quit!

I wasn't taking issue with your thoughts...my point is that only God can read the heart of an individual and determine the outcome for them. If God saw in Hitler's heart there was no true repentance and that he would continue on a wicked course then there could be no salvation for him. But, once again, that is for God to decide.

 

[savagewind]

I wasn't taking issue with your thoughts...my point is that only God can read the heart of an individual and determine the outcome for them. If God saw in Hitler's heart there was no true repentance and that he would continue on a wicked course then there could be no salvation for him. But, once again, that is for God to decide.

FYI I was not meaning you starlite. It's been a long six months. I can't seem to shake it. Must be in the DNA. Mine, not yours OK? Peace.

If a person dies wicked, his course is done, I guess.
"There is no work, not devising, not knowledge" there. Ecclesiastes 9:10

That was the point I was trying to make.

 

[Ingledsva]

What happened here??
Side point regarding Hilter...interesting read....
Catholic Telegraph-Register, Cincinnati, Ohio, of September 1, 1939, follows herewith:
“REARED AS CATHOLIC BUT VIOLATES FAITH SAYS CABLE TO POPE
“250 Chicago Delegates from Nations, Religious Veteran’s Trade Union Bodies Join in Startling Appeal.
“(While we carry the article below as an interesting news item, we do not agree editorially that it is wise to seek action on such a grave matter as excommunication. It is best to leave to the church authorities all such matters. They know best all the points involved and the possible consequences.—EDITORS.)
“(By James Colvin)
“CHICAGO (Exclusive)—An appeal has been made to Pius XII that Reichsfuehrer Adolph Hitler be excommunicated.
“The Resolution [was] sent in at the height of the European delegates of Nations, Religious, Veterans’, and Trade Union Groups, banded together in the United Organizations for the Defense of Democracy.
“Copies of the cablegram were sent to George Cardinal Mundelein of Chicago, William Cardinal O’Connell of Boston, Dennis Cardinal Dougherty of Philadelphia, and Archbishop Amleto Giovanni Cicognani Apostolic Delegate to United States at Washington.
“‘Adolph Hitler,’ it read in part, ‘was born of Catholic parents, was baptized a Catholic, and was reared and educated as such. While publicly by his words, deeds and orders he has become the world’s greatest menace to Christianity, and to civilization, he has not publicly up to the present time declared himself outside of the Church of his parents, and has not repudiated his membership therein, thus remaining subject to the laws and discipline of the Church.
“‘Firmly believing that the pronouncing of excommunication upon Adolph Hitler will help the cause of freedom, Christianity, Humanity, and civilization at this time, we hereby respectfully plead, appeal, and petition your Holiness publicly to proclaim and impose excommunication of Adolph Hitler.’
“One of the speakers at a mass meeting declared: ‘we petition to make saints, thus recognizing the power of the Papacy. If such action holds good there, why not here?’ Included in the organizations represented at the meeting were units of the Polish National Alliance, branches of the Polish Roman Catholic Unions, and its joint Committee of Slovak organizations.”
“Before the Nazi dictator invaded Poland on September 1, 1939, to launch WW II, a plea was made by delegates from forty-eight Polish, Jewish, Slovakian and Lithuanian societies met at Chicago, Illinois, for the pontiff of Vatican City to excommunicate Adolf Hitler, but Pope Pius XII refused to excommunicate that war-mad “son of the church.”—Buffalo, N.Y., Evening Express as of August 29, 1939; The Catholic Telegraph-Register, of Cincinnati, Ohio, Section 2, as of September 1, 1939.

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]So why wasn't he excommunicated? Others have been for less serious crimes. Investigate...it certainly wasn't because God approved of what Hilter was doing.[/FONT]

Indeed! Why not? They actually signed an Accord with him instead.

 

[Ingledsva]

Really?...then what does this mean?

Psalms 37:9-11 and verse 29

New International Version (©1984)
the righteous will inherit the land and dwell in it forever.
New Living Translation (©2007)
The godly will possess the land and will live there forever.
English Standard Version (©2001)
The righteous shall inherit the land and dwell upon it forever.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
The righteous will inherit the land And dwell in it forever.
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
And the righteous ones inherit the Earth and dwell upon it for eternity.
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Righteous people will inherit the land and live there permanently.
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein forever.
American King James Version
The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.
American Standard Version
The righteous shall inherit the land, And dwell therein for ever.

Doesn't actually mean that. Remember these are Psalms.

Hebraic Roots Bible -

Psa 37:7 Rest in YAHWEH and wait patiently for Him; inflame not yourself with him who prospers in his way, with the man practicing evil wiles.
Psa 37:8 Abstain from anger and cease from fury; also do not inflame yourself to do evil.
Psa 37:9 For evildoers shall be cut off; and the ones waiting on YAHWEH, they shall inherit the land.

Psa 37:29 The righteous shall inherit the land and live on it forever.

This is a psalm - they are using "forever" - ad - "perpetuity." Ad actually means a duration.


Psa 37:29 The righteous shall occupy/inherit the land and reside (for the) duration upon it.


It does not mean actual "forever." At some point the people, or the land, or the earth, cease to be.

 

[starlite]

If a person dies wicked, his course is done, I guess.
"There is no work, not devising, not knowledge" there. Ecclesiastes 9:10

Yes...peace. Here's something new to think about:[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]What is the meaning of John 5:28, 29? It says: “All those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.” If people were going to be condemned on the basis of deeds in their past life, that would be inconsistent with Romans 6:7: “He who has died has been acquitted from his sin.” It would also be unreasonable to resurrect people simply for them to be destroyed. Acts 24:15: “I have hope toward God . . . that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.” Both those who lived in harmony with God’s righteous ways and people who, out of ignorance, did unrighteous things will be resurrected.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]John also wrote of this vision in Revelation: “The sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Hades gave up those dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds. And death and Hades were hurled into the lake of fire. The common grave of mankind will cease to exist.[/FONT]

 

[RJ50]

I hope to cease to be when I die. The idea of inhabiting a heaven in which the Biblical version of the deity resides would be my idea of hell!

 

[savagewind]

people who, out of ignorance, did unrighteous things will be resurrected.

Yes, it is the point of the thread. To claim ignorance for the way some people lived is impossible imo. "I had no idea torturing and killing thousands, millions, of people was bad". Really? Some people will say it was the demons that MADE evil men do and lead like they did. Again I must say really? That argument cannot be used along with the belief of free will. To believe demons can make men do what they do is to then ask, if demons can take free will away and do, then why does God not do it too?

 

[Muffled]

i think someone who believes in reincarnation is on the way to explaining that contrast better.

I believe in re-incarnation but probably not in the same way as Hindus and Buddhists. I believe having a life facing temptation helps to establish a good conscience for those seeking one but it doesn't help the wicked much. Maybe a better punishment for the wicked would be to send them to heaven where they would have to be good.

 

[Muffled]

Heaven as defined as the best possible destination wished for can certainly be defined as reincarnation by some people. You will not be going off topic I think.

If a person repents of his evil deeds before he dies can he expect a better reincarnated life than if he had not repented?

As a Christian my view is that The Kingdom of Heaven on earth is the best possible destination and the one that jesus pronounced to be His gospel (good news). In that situation there is no reincarnation because no-one dies.

I don't believe so. I think the evidence of what happened to the apostles before they died shows there is still a judgement bill that has to be paid. However I believe the evidence is that repentance reduces or eliminates punishment.

 

[Muffled]

OK, fair request. I wanted to know if anyone was really interested before I started.
When a person dies he spends time on an astral (heaven) plane enjoying the positive side of his being. So 'good' people have a more fulfilling heaven. But after a time we all realize we have more to grow and return in another body.

The status of that new life is determined not only by heredity and environment but also by the state of your soul.

So the answer to your OP is that heaven is not an all or nothing proposition. It has degrees depending on the quality of the person. So everyone experiences some heaven and some hell (lack of fulfillment and dispointment in heaven). But the good news is we all get smarter and better each time and eventually there is no reincarnation for us,

I believe that a spirit that knows it isn't inexorably tied to the body and is not immediately re-incarnated can explore all realms astral or otherwise as it wishes but will not necessarily go to Heaven. I believe in such a state the spirit has time to examine its own consciousness which may include both good and bad memories.

I don't believe this is the case. I believe God ordains when a person will be reborn and he may weel reserve the wicked for a time of punishment. Largely when the population is small there are few openings for life and God can be selective as to whom He allows to have a life. I believe God is interested in bringing people into harmony with Hinself and that is a consideration.

I don't believe this to be true. I believe Heaven is only good.

I believe in this you are speaking of a spiritual state and not actual places.

I believe the better and smarter people want to have a physical life.

 

[savagewind]

As a Christian my view is that The Kingdom of Heaven on earth is the best possible destination and the one that Jesus pronounced to be His gospel (good news).

I agree. I have heard Christianity is waiting for the obvious order of God that the Kingdom has begun. I believe that will never happen. The Kingdom is like the clouds and the lightening. It is present and in our midst. It is my opinion that if believers are waiting for the order to hear it, they will miss it. It is odd to be waiting for something that is present. Christ is at the door knocking. But the householder is waiting to see the one knocking. Open the door.

 

[Ingledsva]

Yes...peace. Here's something new to think about:[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]What is the meaning of John 5:28, 29? It says: “All those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.” If people were going to be condemned on the basis of deeds in their past life, that would be inconsistent with Romans 6:7: “He who has died has been acquitted from his sin.” It would also be unreasonable to resurrect people simply for them to be destroyed. Acts 24:15: “I have hope toward God . . . that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.” Both those who lived in harmony with God’s righteous ways and people who, out of ignorance, did unrighteous things will be resurrected.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]John also wrote of this vision in Revelation: “The sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Hades gave up those dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds. And death and Hades were hurled into the lake of fire. The common grave of mankind will cease to exist.[/FONT]

As to 5:28

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
I've been in some good debates concerning this and related passages. The consensus was that Jesus had not been sacrificed yet - 28 says the time is comming.

The Hebrew offered sacrifices continually throught their lives - to atone for their sins - until their messiah came. The OT says all of these are in Sheol (they had not yet heard the word. Died before messiah came.)

In the story Jesus as Messiah is the final Sacrifice - He takes all the sin on himself.

Those who died before the Cross have to be given a chance to hear, and be given the choice.

So it is talking about a totally separate group - those who died before the cross.

 

[Oak of Justice]

The Lord says this; "When a wicked man turns from wickedness and does what is right and just because of this he shall live."

"All those who do good shall rise to live, the evildoers shall rise to be condemned."

"Once you have the light keep faith in the light and you will become a child of light."

"Walk in the light once you have it or darkness will come over you."

 

[RJ50]

The Lord says this; "When a wicked man turns from wickedness and does what is right and just because of this he shall live."

"All those who do good shall rise to live, the evildoers shall rise to be condemned."

"Once you have the light keep faith in the light and you will become a child of light."

"Walk in the light once you have it or darkness will come over you."

That is very funny as the deity featured in the Bible is the epitomy of all that is evil!

 

[savagewind]

That is very funny as the deity featured in the Bible is the epitomy of all that is evil!

ALL that is evil? If "the deity" is "all evil" the deity would make the deity look good, strong, beneficial, rich, smarter than anyone else, you know, like EVIL does. Maybe you see the deity as evil but I cannot believe you honestly see the deity as the "epitome of all that is evil".