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Heaven

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I have heard people say that a very bad person can be awarded heaven as long as he repents of his bad deeds before he dies and acknowledges God's superiority. But it is in contrast to what I believe that a person must do works of repentance to make up for the badness she has done. Matthew 3:8
Produce fruit in keeping with repentance.
I think most people will agree a dead person can not do that.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
I have heard people say that a very bad person can be awarded heaven as long as he repents of his bad deeds before he dies and acknowledges God's superiority. But it is in contrast to what I believe that a person must do works of repentance to make up for the badness she has done. Matthew 3:8 I think most people will agree a dead person can not do that.

If life continues after death, then a dead person could in fact do that.

When someone talks about heaven, it is nothing more than a guess, as is all after life. With heaven specifically, there are a number of opinions. There are many who refuse to even acknowledge that someone like Hitler could ever go to heaven. So there is a limit that many people do place on repentance.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Poor Hitler, the archetype of all the bad people. I am one who refuses to believe Hitler could ever go to heaven. I can never be Catholic I guess. Is that right?
 

Vultar

Active Member
If life continues after death, then a dead person could in fact do that.

When someone talks about heaven, it is nothing more than a guess, as is all after life. With heaven specifically, there are a number of opinions. There are many who refuse to even acknowledge that someone like Hitler could ever go to heaven. So there is a limit that many people do place on repentance.

I'm glad I know what happens :D
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I gave it some thought and came to my own conclusion that works of faith for repentance are not allowed after a person dies. The reason why is the person is now spirit. The good work that dead person's spirit might do can be better accomplished by an angel or even by God so it would not really make up for what the person did. And who knows what goes on in the spirit realm? Can a living person know an apology from a dead person? I don't think so.
 

Vultar

Active Member
I gave it some thought and came to my own conclusion that works of faith for repentance are not allowed after a person dies. The reason why is the person is now spirit. The good work that dead person's spirit might do can be better accomplished by an angel or even by God so it would not really make up for what the person did. And who knows what goes on in the spirit realm? Can a living person know an apology from a dead person? I don't think so.

It is my belief that your conclusions are a bit off as there really wouldn't be any "rules" in the afterlife other then those of the physical laws of nature (which really aren't rules, they are just the way things work)
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It is my belief that your conclusions are a bit off as there really wouldn't be any "rules" in the afterlife other then those of the physical laws of nature (which really aren't rules, they are just the way things work)

There are no "physical" laws in the spirit.
 

Vultar

Active Member
There are no "physical" laws in the spirit.

Again, I must disagree...
I believe from my experiences that the spirit is comprised mainly of energy, this energy still follows basic physics (for example, you are not going to move faster then the speed of light). Plus, as there is no physical body, all the senses behave quite differently. (one good example is "seeing". As you have no eyes you have no direct way of seeing, however the spirits electrical energy can interact with other electrical energy including other living being that do have eyes. Now you end "seeing" out of multiple perpectives at the same time which ends up having the illusion of floating above everyone due to the way the multiple images are merged together - this is the same way people see during an "OBE". It can also produce somewhat fractured images that appear to sparkle or glow or add body parts until the spirit gets used to "seeing" in this altered way - hence some of the funky descriptions of what people have seen during a death event or out of body experience)
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I have heard people say that a very bad person can be awarded heaven as long as he repents of his bad deeds before he dies and acknowledges God's superiority. But it is in contrast to what I believe that a person must do works of repentance to make up for the badness she has done. Matthew 3:8 I think most people will agree a dead person can not do that.

I believe Jesus will never turn anyone who is truly repentent away. I believe He knows the heart of the person which would determine the persons actions if he were still alive.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
1 John 5:16 There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that.

Jeremiah 7:16
So do not pray for this people nor offer any plea or petition for them; do not plead with me, for I will not listen to you.

Jeremiah 11:14 Do not pray for this people nor offer any plea or petition for them, because I will not listen when they call to me in the time of their distress.

Jeremiah 14:11 Then the LORD said to me, "Do not pray for the well-being of this people."


Hebrews 10:26
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,

Matthew 12:31 And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.


Is Blaspheming the Holy Spirit forgivable in the new religion that I am hearing on forum? You must count me out please.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Matthew 11:28

Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.

You must come meet the ones who are making you weary and feeling burdened. They are here too. Wink
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I understand that very bad sin can be forgiven. I feel I must campaign against the idea that ALL sin can be forgiven. Some sin is so obviously against life that to teach it is capable of being forgiven is just lazy and cowardly imo. How so cowardly? People who are afraid to judge sin are afraid to be judged. are they not?
 

Vultar

Active Member
This sounds to me like using fear to get people to fall in line (believe and you will be forgiven, don't believe and there is not forgiveness for you - sounds like the "soup nazi" of forgiveness to me)
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Believe and you will be forgiven? No. Seek forgiveness. Just like anything else in life which is to be sought. I do not see anything bad about that. Keep on refusing to stop doing badness and be not forgiven. Is there something wrong with that way?

The original post is about people on their death bed who are repentant. Some people think that to be repentant no matter for what or when means to be forgiven. I DO NOT. Do you? I think that rule teaches carelessness. Also it is not fair for those people who have sought to do the will of God their whole life. Why should a person doing gross wickedness and a person seeking peace their whole life get the same reward? It's not fair. It's not black or white I know it. Just for the record I do not believe in a place to go called heaven, but some people do. Hell is more likely.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
1 John 5:16 There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that.

Jeremiah 7:16 So do not pray for this people nor offer any plea or petition for them; do not plead with me, for I will not listen to you.

Jeremiah 11:14 Do not pray for this people nor offer any plea or petition for them, because I will not listen when they call to me in the time of their distress.

Jeremiah 14:11 Then the LORD said to me, "Do not pray for the well-being of this people."


Hebrews 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,

Matthew 12:31 And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.


Is Blaspheming the Holy Spirit forgivable in the new religion that I am hearing on forum? You must count me out please.

I think it is actually saying all manner of "everyday" offense can be forgiven, rather then all sin, except the blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

Hamartia also means sinfulness. So I think it is saying our normal "sinful" nature can be forgiven, and not major crimes.

Mat adds this as well.

Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Mat 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I have heard people say that a very bad person can be awarded heaven as long as he repents of his bad deeds before he dies and acknowledges God's superiority. But it is in contrast to what I believe that a person must do works of repentance to make up for the badness she has done. Matthew 3:8 I think most people will agree a dead person can not do that.

On rare occasions, a person could repent near their time of death. One example that comes to mind is the evildoer impaled alongside Jesus. (Luke 23:39-43) And the Bible promises "that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous." (Acts 24:15) Since I believe God can read hearts, he can know whether any professed repentance is genuine or fake.
However, heaven is not the reward for the vast majority of mankind. Rather, I believe it is as Jesus stated:"Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth." (Matthew 5:5)
 

Vultar

Active Member
Believe and you will be forgiven? No. Seek forgiveness. Just like anything else in life which is to be sought. I do not see anything bad about that. Keep on refusing to stop doing badness and be not forgiven. Is there something wrong with that way?

The original post is about people on their death bed who are repentant. Some people think that to be repentant no matter for what or when means to be forgiven. I DO NOT. Do you? I think that rule teaches carelessness. Also it is not fair for those people who have sought to do the will of God their whole life. Why should a person doing gross wickedness and a person seeking peace their whole life get the same reward? It's not fair. It's not black or white I know it. Just for the record I do not believe in a place to go called heaven, but some people do. Hell is more likely.

I believe there is no one to need to seek forgiveness from. That there is no judging other then that from ones self after you die. Everyone enters the afterlife...
 

Rise

Well-Known Member
But it is in contrast to what I believe that a person must do works of repentance to make up for the badness she has done. Matthew 3:8 I think most people will agree a dead person can not do that.

In context, the religious leaders have come to John the baptist looking to be baptized, but he calls them a brood of vipers and tells them that if they have actually repented then they should start demonstrating that with their actions - He was discerning that they had not actually repented in their heart, so had no business being baptized.

The idea that we need to do good works to atone for our bad works is not good news, and the very meaning of the gospel is "good news". Because you're enslaved to a debt you can never repay on your own. The Good News is that Jesus paid off your debt already.
Colossians 2:
13 When you were dead [k]in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.


Consider these two parables about debt Jesus gave us:

Matthew 18
23 “For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves. 24 When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25 But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made. 26 So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.’ 27 And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt. 28 But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back what you owe.’ 29 So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you.’ 30 But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed. 31 So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. 32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”


A debt of 10,000 talents is something that he and his children could never have repaid, ever. One talent was equivalent to a years wages for the average person.
He, his children, and his children's descendants would be doomed to perpetual slavery trying to pay that off.

Jesus is using this as a parable of how He has forgiven us so greatly, so that in same way we should not hold comparably trifling offenses against our brothers and sisters, but should show them mercy.

He not only forgave him all that debt, but the debtor had done nothing to deserve it, it was purely an act of mercy, and no further work was expected of him.
The only thing he ends up wanting from the debtor is a heart that is willing to forgive others of their debts towards him.


It is a dangerous place to be in if you want to start judging who deserves to have their sins forgiven, based on their works, because it shows one is not aware of how much they have truly been forgiven. Or worse, it puts them in a position of thinking they are ok to judge others because if the were judged then they would "pass the test" of having done nothing really bad but done much good.
The epistles tell us that transgressing even one part of the law is as having transgressed all of it. A liar is just as guilty as a murderer in the sight of the law. Those who trust in their own righteousness to justify them will be sorely mistaken. It's very difficult to judge others as not deserving their sins forgiven if you realize that you yourself weren't righteous enough to be saved without the mercy of Jesus having forgiven you.


The next parable:

Luke 7
40 And Jesus answered him, “Simon, I have something to say to you.” And he replied, “Say it, Teacher.” 41 “A moneylender had two debtors: one owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. 42 When they were unable to repay, he graciously forgave them both. So which of them will love him more?” 43 Simon answered and said, “I suppose the one whom he forgave more.” And He said to him, “You have judged correctly.” 44 Turning toward the woman, He said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave Me no water for My feet, but she has wet My feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45 You gave Me no kiss; but she, since the time I came in, has not ceased to kiss My feet. 46 You did not anoint My head with oil, but she anointed My feet with perfume. 47 For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little.” 48 Then He said to her, “Your sins have been forgiven.” 49 Those who were reclining at the table with Him began to say to themselves, “Who is this man who even forgives sins?” 50 And He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”


Her works didn't save her, her faith did. Her actions were a demonstration of her faith in what He did, for she knew how much she had need of forgiveness.


Consider the thief on the cross:
39 One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, “Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!” 40 But the other answered, and rebuking him said, “Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” 43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

What works did the thief do from the Cross to atone for his misdeeds?
All he did was turn his heart towards Jesus in faith.
When you realize that Jesus bore our sins and is so merciful, It's truly a wonderful thing for all of us. Good news indeed, the gospel.

Romans 8
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life [a]in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, [b]weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of [c]sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.


We have all incurred a debt we can never repay under our own effort. This system suits satan just fine because it keeps us and our descendants enslaved to the law of sin and death. An analogy would be getting into a credit card debt you can't work off, and just living your life you end up racking up more debt in the process, but those who keep you and your children in slavery over this are happy to let this process continue.
One day someone comes along and not only pays off all your debts, but offers to set up a joint account with Him so that you can have access to all His riches. All you need to do is believe that it is there so you can recieve it willingly.
But your creditors would prefer you remain in ignorance, and keep you enslaved to a debt of sin that is no longer your responsibility to bear, hoping you don't become aware that you can tap into an account of riches as a joint hier with Christ.



I have heard people say that a very bad person can be awarded heaven as long as he repents of his bad deeds before he dies and acknowledges God's superiority.

There's no clearer picture of that being true than the thief on the cross.
But to understand why that is the case, it may help to ask yourself this:

When a father disciplines a child, what is the purpose of that discpline?

The purpose is to make them realize that they were wrong, to give them a desire to do what it is right, bringing about a character change that is aligned with what is right.

God is after your heart. He doesn't want to punish you. He doesn't want you to suffer for your crimes. He just wants you to realize you were doing something wrong so you can stop doing it. He wants you to realize that His ways are right, and yours aren't. He wants you to trust Him.
 
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Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
I actually find this idea that anything you do will be forgiven to be absolutely repugnant.

Rape kids, torture and murder women, ask for forgiveness on your death bed, and home free? NOPE!
 

Rise

Well-Known Member
I'll throw out this nice verse too:
Titus 3:
5 he saved us, not because of the righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He washed away our sins, giving us a new birth and new life through the Holy Spirit.
6 He generously poured out the Spirit upon us through Jesus Christ our Savior.
7 Because of his grace he declared us righteous and gave us confidence that we will inherit eternal life."

 
 
1 John 5:16 There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that.
Right here in 1 John 1:
7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
 
Psalm 103
2 Bless the Lord, O my soul,
And forget none of His benefits;
3 Who pardons all your iniquities,

Collosians 2
13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14
having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

So any reading of 1 John 5 has to be done in the context of what we already know: which is that Christ forgave all our sins.
There are a couple different ways we could potentially read 1 John 5, but regardless there is one thing we know for sure: He's not saying there is a sin you can commit that can't be forgiven by the sacrifice of Christ.
 
He could be talking about how giving into a life of sin leads to death, as ultimately being a rejection of God, as James 1 talks about:
Temptation comes from our own desires, which entice us and drag us away. 15 These desires give birth to sinful actions. And when sin is allowed to grow, it gives birth to death.
Or he could be talking about the unforgivable sin of not having faith to recieve your forgiveness. (see below where I address the "unforgiveable sin" in more detail)
But no matter which way you try to interpret it, there's no room for interpreting 1 John 5:16 as suggesting that there is something bad enough we can do that Christ's blood wasn't good enough to pay for and bring us to forgiveness and right standing with God.
To suggest that more has to be done on our part, that his blood wasn't enough, is to "trample the Son of God underfoot" (hebrews 10:29)
Jeremiah 7:16 So do not pray for this people nor offer any plea or petition for them; do not plead with me, for I will not listen to you.
Jeremiah 11:14 Do not pray for this people nor offer any plea or petition for them, because I will not listen when they call to me in the time of their distress.
Jeremiah 14:11 Then the LORD said to me, "Do not pray for the well-being of this people."
That is not in the context of there being a sin too great for Christ's blood to pay for.
This was an issue of not repenting. If they had a heart to repent, things could have been different.

What happened to Israel was deemed necessary by God, precisely because they would not repent, that is why he commanded his prophet to not intercede on their behalf and ask for mercy, so that they might be turned to repentance and their nation ultimately given another chance to redeem their destiny.
 
This actually ties more into the idea that 1 John 5:16 and James 1:14-15 are talking about what results from someone who has set their heart on willful disobedience without any desire to repent. That's usually when judgement falls, because God is willing to be merciful so long as someone has a heart set on trying to live in obedience.
Hebrews 10:26
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,
This is talking about not just making a choice to sin, but a choice to keep on doing it without any attempt at repentence.
The way you are forgiven of sin commited after becoming a chrisitan is the same way it was forgiven before you became a christian: Repent. If you never intend on repenting then you can't be forgiven.
 
If you aren't convinced, let's consider the rammifications of a doctrine that tries to say that verse implies a christian must do a work of some sort to atone for every sin they commited after knowing the truth (as if the blood of Christ could only cover sins done in ignorance)
1. The penalty for sin is death. (romans 6:23)
2. The remission of sin only comes by the shedding of blood. (hebrews 9)
3. Only Christ's blood was acceptable (Hebrews 10:3-10)
You would be condemning to death every christian who ever slipped up and gave into temptation to sin, regardless of whether or not they were repentant afterwards.
And there's no amount of good works you can do to cover up your sin, because the remission of sin only comes by the shedding of blood, and not the blood of bulls or goats, but the blood of His Son.
 
How exactly were you planning to save yourself from mistakes then? Where in the new testament does it say you have to do works to save yourself if you've commited a sin, as though that were even possible?
 
Also consider the context of all Hebrews 10:
He may be specifically referring to the deliberate sin they are commiting by continuing to offer sacrifices at the temple, thereby trampling underfoot the sacrifice of Christ. This would fall under a continued and unrepentant form of sin, if they know the truth about Christ being the final and only sacrifice but then chose to reject that truth in faithlessness to continue in the old way of doing things.
Matthew 12:31 And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
Is Blaspheming the Holy Spirit forgivable in the new religion that I am hearing on forum? You must count me out please.
We already know from multiple scriptures that all sin is forgiven by the sacrifice of Christ, so let's look at the context of this verse, where people are accusing Jesus of casting out demons by the power of demons, and not by the power of God's Spirit.
The only reason that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (rejecting the divine nature of the Holy Spirit) is unforgivable is because you've refused to accept the source of your forgiveness in faith, accusing both His Son and His Spirit of being demonic.
The unforgiveable sin is the state of not having faith. Our faith is how we recieve our forgiveness.
So the only thing that can't be forgiven is faithlessness, because you don't have the faith to recieve the forgiveness waiting for you.
 
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