Sounds like another good, old-fashioned religious threat, to me.
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- Thread starter PoetPhilosopher
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Terry Sampson
Well-Known Member
The Baha'i attachment isn't a "threat" I take seriously. It's just a Baha'i roadblock to prevent another "messenger" from weasling in and leading Baha'i astray before the Kitab-i-aqdas agenda can be "well-founded". If Jesus was to pop in before 1,000 years are up and say: "Hi, remember me?", Baha'i would reject him, which really wouldn't matter to atheists, would it?
Sexual desire is a natural part of being human, but as with all human desires, it needs to be controlled. We have a need for food, but an unnatural desire for food can lead to gluttony, obesity and a string of health problems.
The Bible speaks of the benefits of wine (Jesus' first miracle was turning water into wine) but overindulging leads to drunkenness and a loss of control. It too, when not controlled, can lead to alcoholism and all the things that accompany it....domestic violence, drink driving, health issues etc.
We all love our cell phones, but there is a time when it's use becomes an addiction, especially among our youth. Cyber bullying is now one of the main triggers for the epidemic of teen suicide. Are you seeing where I am going with this?
It's about self-control, which the Bible says is a product of God's spirit. If we have problems managing our conduct which may be out of aligament with God's laws, then we have a way to curb those natural desires by asking God for help. Then working in harmony with our prayers....giving God some effort to bless. He will not do it for us.
Galatians 5:19-24....
"19 Now the works of the flesh are plainly seen, and they are sexual immorality, uncleanness, brazen conduct, 20 idolatry, spiritism, hostility, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, dissensions, divisions, sects, 21 envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and things like these. I am forewarning you about these things, the same way I already warned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s Kingdom."
There is no misunderstanding this directive, or the consequences of disobedience in any of those activities. But Paul goes on to list the results of obeying God in our lives....
"22 On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, 23 mildness, self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Moreover, those who belong to Christ Jesus have nailed to the stake the flesh together with its passions and desires."
We are not left to languish in misery. Having God's spirit to help us overcome what might be any strong desire, will have good results. We are the drivers of our own vehicle....the captains of our own ship.....you see? It's all about our attitude.
That is simply not true for those who genuinely love God. There is no way to disobey God without consequences. Gender issues from God's perspective can be addressed through redirecting our focus off our fleshly desires and onto the job at hand, which Jesus said had to be accomplished before God rectifies all that is wrong with this world. (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20)
If the story is true, the Law was given a long time ago. We're not the same people that they were. We didn't experience the Exodus.
To put my opinion in perspective; try to imagine that the story in the OT is true and that the Law is real and authoritative. If so, that means that by the time the prohibition against homosexuality was introduced officially to the nation of Israel, the people had witnessed the 10 plagues and the parting of the sea. The were in the presence of the clouds of glory, manna was falling from heaven, etc.... Try to imagine what it would feel like to be a human being witnessing all of that...
In light of this, it makes sense, doesn't it? After experiencing the Exodus and the Mount Sinai event, eating heavenly manna every day.... would you be thinking about sex or your own personal desires? I doubt it. I think you would be focusing on learning the law, and following the law, and enjoying the manna ( hopefully )
Do you see what I mean?
Yes, I see someone trying to justify what God condemns.
God's reasonable laws were given to human beings with an expectation that compliance would follow. His laws and standards do not change to suit us, no matter what our circumstances are. Justification only makes people feel better about their disobedience. It does not excuse their behavior, nor does it negate the seriousness of it or take away the stated consequences.
I have come to realize that humans are desperate creatures who can justify all manner of things so that their consciences do not keep prodding them. But I believe that we can all do what God commands....it's just that so many of us simply don't want to.
Jeremiah 17:9-10....
" 9 The heart is more treacherous than anything else and is desperate.
Who can know it?
10 I, Jehovah, am searching the heart,
Examining the innermost thoughts,
To give to each one according to his ways,
According to the fruitage of his works."
There it is.....we will reap what we sow.
Sexual desire is a natural part of being human, but as with all human desires, it needs to be controlled. We have a need for food, but an unnatural desire for food can lead to gluttony, obesity and a string of health problems.
The Bible speaks of the benefits of wine (Jesus' first miracle was turning water into wine) but overindulging leads to drunkenness and a loss of control. It too, when not controlled, can lead to alcoholism and all the things that accompany it....domestic violence, drink driving, health issues etc.
We all love our cell phones, but there is a time when it's use becomes an addiction, especially among our youth. Cyber bullying is now one of the main triggers for the epidemic of teen suicide. Are you seeing where I am going with this?
It's about self-control, which the Bible says is a product of God's spirit. If we have problems managing our conduct which may be out of aligament with God's laws, then we have a way to curb those natural desires by asking God for help. Then working in harmony with our prayers....giving God some effort to bless. He will not do it for us.
Galatians 5:19-24....
"19 Now the works of the flesh are plainly seen, and they are sexual immorality, uncleanness, brazen conduct, 20 idolatry, spiritism, hostility, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, dissensions, divisions, sects, 21 envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and things like these. I am forewarning you about these things, the same way I already warned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s Kingdom."
There is no misunderstanding this directive, or the consequences of disobedience in any of those activities. But Paul goes on to list the results of obeying God in our lives....
"22 On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, 23 mildness, self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Moreover, those who belong to Christ Jesus have nailed to the stake the flesh together with its passions and desires."
We are not left to languish in misery. Having God's spirit to help us overcome what might be any strong desire, will have good results. We are the drivers of our own vehicle....the captains of our own ship.....you see? It's all about our attitude.
That is simply not true for those who genuinely love God. There is no way to disobey God without consequences. Gender issues from God's perspective can be addressed through redirecting our focus off our fleshly desires and onto the job at hand, which Jesus said had to be accomplished before God rectifies all that is wrong with this world. (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20)
Yes, I see someone trying to justify what God condemns.
God's reasonable laws were given to human beings with an expectation that compliance would follow. His laws and standards do not change to suit us, no matter what our circumstances are. Justification only makes people feel better about their disobedience. It does not excuse their behavior, nor does it negate the seriousness of it or take away the stated consequences.
I have come to realize that humans are desperate creatures who can justify all manner of things so that their consciences do not keep prodding them. But I believe that we can all do what God commands....it's just that so many of us simply don't want to.
Jeremiah 17:9-10....
" 9 The heart is more treacherous than anything else and is desperate.
Who can know it?
10 I, Jehovah, am searching the heart,
Examining the innermost thoughts,
To give to each one according to his ways,
According to the fruitage of his works."
There it is.....we will reap what we sow.
Thank you Deeje. I appreciate the perspective, the scholarship, and the sense of humor.
Since I can't dispute anything you said above, maybe I can respond this way?
I agree.
Thank you Deeje. I appreciate the perspective, the scholarship, and the sense of humor.
Since I can't dispute anything you said above, maybe I can respond this way?
Deeje said:
I agree.
Thank you.
If we truly love God, then his will is more important than ours. If it's not, then we have lost the plot.
What do you think the plot is?
I think it's a process. I don't think that gender and sexuality should interfere with it.Thank you.
If we truly love God, then his will is more important than ours. If it's not, then we have lost the plot.
What do you think the plot is?
I was thinking more about the big picture. Gender and sexuality is just a small part of it. We are all living in the same world, but worlds apart in our individual thinking.....so what do you see as the purpose of our being......the reason for our struggles......the value of the laws and lessons contained in the scriptures.....and what the final outcome means for us and this planet that man is now destroying......is there a purpose to it all in your world view?
Would it bother atheists? Of course not. I just can't help but notice the obvious -- that it is what you say it is, a roadblock to prevent other "messengers." Of course, Islam has one of those, too, in that they claim that Mohammed is the last prophet that will ever be, and Christians do it to, claiming that Christ is still with them and will (in some fashion) come again -- whatever the Parousia is supposed to look like.
It's those very obvious things that wake up the skeptic in a bunch of us.
"I was thinking more about the big picture. Gender and sexuality is just a small part of it. "
I agree that gender and sexuality are a small part of the big picture as well.
"what do you see as the purpose of our being reason for our struggles?"
I don't know for sure. I think that God is rooting for us to overcome our inherent flaws. I think God finds our successes in spite of our flaws to be beautiful.
"the value of the laws and lessons contained in the scriptures?"
( Focusing on the Old Testament, because, that is part that includes to prohibition on Homosexuality ) The Old Testament is the story of a flawed, but holy nation.
"and what the final outcome means for us and this planet that man is now destroying?"
If you're asking me to speculate, then, pick the most optimistic outcome, and that's my answer.
"is there a purpose to it all in your world view?"
I feel like there is a purpose; but, I don't know what it is.
Sexual desire is a natural part of being human, but as with all human desires, it needs to be controlled. We have a need for food, but an unnatural desire for food can lead to gluttony, obesity and a string of health problems.
The Bible speaks of the benefits of wine (Jesus' first miracle was turning water into wine) but overindulging leads to drunkenness and a loss of control. It too, when not controlled, can lead to alcoholism and all the things that accompany it....domestic violence, drink driving, health issues etc.
We all love our cell phones, but there is a time when it's use becomes an addiction, especially among our youth. Cyber bullying is now one of the main triggers for the epidemic of teen suicide. Are you seeing where I am going with this?
It's about self-control, which the Bible says is a product of God's spirit. If we have problems managing our conduct which may be out of aligament with God's laws, then we have a way to curb those natural desires by asking God for help. Then working in harmony with our prayers....giving God some effort to bless. He will not do it for us.
Galatians 5:19-24....
"19 Now the works of the flesh are plainly seen, and they are sexual immorality, uncleanness, brazen conduct, 20 idolatry, spiritism, hostility, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, dissensions, divisions, sects, 21 envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and things like these. I am forewarning you about these things, the same way I already warned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s Kingdom."
There is no misunderstanding this directive, or the consequences of disobedience in any of those activities. But Paul goes on to list the results of obeying God in our lives....
"22 On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, 23 mildness, self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Moreover, those who belong to Christ Jesus have nailed to the stake the flesh together with its passions and desires."
We are not left to languish in misery. Having God's spirit to help us overcome what might be any strong desire, will have good results. We are the drivers of our own vehicle....the captains of our own ship.....you see? It's all about our attitude.
That is simply not true for those who genuinely love God. There is no way to disobey God without consequences. Gender issues from God's perspective can be addressed through redirecting our focus off our fleshly desires and onto the job at hand, which Jesus said had to be accomplished before God rectifies all that is wrong with this world. (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20)
Yes, I see someone trying to justify what God condemns.
God's reasonable laws were given to human beings with an expectation that compliance would follow. His laws and standards do not change to suit us, no matter what our circumstances are. Justification only makes people feel better about their disobedience. It does not excuse their behavior, nor does it negate the seriousness of it or take away the stated consequences.
I have come to realize that humans are desperate creatures who can justify all manner of things so that their consciences do not keep prodding them. But I believe that we can all do what God commands....it's just that so many of us simply don't want to.
Jeremiah 17:9-10....
" 9 The heart is more treacherous than anything else and is desperate.
Who can know it?
10 I, Jehovah, am searching the heart,
Examining the innermost thoughts,
To give to each one according to his ways,
According to the fruitage of his works."
There it is.....we will reap what we sow.
See here’s where I have a disconnect with your line of reasoning. You are readily able to use all these illustrations for why one shouldn’t overindulge. Too much Wine leads to drunkenness, too much food leads to gluttony and so forth. Fine.
But hypothetically speaking, what about monogamous same sex couples? Both still virgins upon their commencement of their relationship. What bad things will result in their relationship that is inherently unique to same sex couples? Health issues abounds in having too many kids. STDs would be more of a problem for a polyamorous/polygamist couple. Sex addiction is blind to sexual orientation.
It starts to become more abstract when you apply the same illustrations in a broader sense to the gay couple. Which makes it appear not entirely reasonable. It’s more like a simple test of obedience. Which is above and beyond for what the heterosexual couple have to go through. They can actually experience all of their human desires (even if they restrain themselves) with the out known as marriage. A little unfair, but whatever.
Just offering a perspective
I can't help noticing that you are willing to call "sexual desire" natural, but make zero reference to "sexual orientation." I've no doubt there's a reason for that omission.Sexual desire is a natural part of being human, but as with all human desires, it needs to be controlled. We have a need for food, but an unnatural desire for food can lead to gluttony, obesity and a string of health problems.
The Bible speaks of the benefits of wine (Jesus' first miracle was turning water into wine) but overindulging leads to drunkenness and a loss of control. It too, when not controlled, can lead to alcoholism and all the things that accompany it....domestic violence, drink driving, health issues etc.
We all love our cell phones, but there is a time when it's use becomes an addiction, especially among our youth. Cyber bullying is now one of the main triggers for the epidemic of teen suicide. Are you seeing where I am going with this?
It's about self-control, which the Bible says is a product of God's spirit. If we have problems managing our conduct which may be out of aligament with God's laws, then we have a way to curb those natural desires by asking God for help. Then working in harmony with our prayers....giving God some effort to bless. He will not do it for us.
Galatians 5:19-24....
"19 Now the works of the flesh are plainly seen, and they are sexual immorality, uncleanness, brazen conduct, 20 idolatry, spiritism, hostility, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, dissensions, divisions, sects, 21 envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and things like these. I am forewarning you about these things, the same way I already warned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s Kingdom."
There is no misunderstanding this directive, or the consequences of disobedience in any of those activities. But Paul goes on to list the results of obeying God in our lives....
"22 On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, 23 mildness, self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Moreover, those who belong to Christ Jesus have nailed to the stake the flesh together with its passions and desires."
We are not left to languish in misery. Having God's spirit to help us overcome what might be any strong desire, will have good results. We are the drivers of our own vehicle....the captains of our own ship.....you see? It's all about our attitude.
That is simply not true for those who genuinely love God. There is no way to disobey God without consequences. Gender issues from God's perspective can be addressed through redirecting our focus off our fleshly desires and onto the job at hand, which Jesus said had to be accomplished before God rectifies all that is wrong with this world. (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20)
Yes, I see someone trying to justify what God condemns.
God's reasonable laws were given to human beings with an expectation that compliance would follow. His laws and standards do not change to suit us, no matter what our circumstances are. Justification only makes people feel better about their disobedience. It does not excuse their behavior, nor does it negate the seriousness of it or take away the stated consequences.
I have come to realize that humans are desperate creatures who can justify all manner of things so that their consciences do not keep prodding them. But I believe that we can all do what God commands....it's just that so many of us simply don't want to.
Jeremiah 17:9-10....
" 9 The heart is more treacherous than anything else and is desperate.
Who can know it?
10 I, Jehovah, am searching the heart,
Examining the innermost thoughts,
To give to each one according to his ways,
According to the fruitage of his works."
There it is.....we will reap what we sow.
One of those reasons, of course, is that it must be a completely wonderful thing for you that your "desire" happens to match your "orientation," and therefore (so long as you are "in control") you get to go for it. It leaves out, however, what must underlie your thinking, is that if one's orientation happens to not be the most usual, you believe the requirement to be "sorry, but never, ever, in all of your life, are you permitted to give in to your desires - even if you exercise lots of control. Tough toenails, and don't you wish you were just like me."
Now, for some people who live in a real world, one that is defined by at least one or two thing that the writers of the Bible couldn't know squat about, are aware that the Bible also tells you a lot of other things that you must not do, but which you conveniently ignore by supposing that "the rules changed." (Completely ignoring, of course, by reason of inconvenience, that Jesus said the rules don't change -- "not a tittle or a jot.")
Which leaves us with -- the Bible contains the "commandments" of human beings, of long long ago, limited in their knowledge, which you are willing to ignore when convenient, but wish to apply to others where you personally don't agree.
Total, unequivocal hypocrisy. Sorry to say it so bluntly.
Thank you for your honest reply....
A tiny part. We have lost the true definition of love. Most people think that the love expressed in love songs defines what love is, but when you examine the scriptures, the word for that kind of love (Greek, eros) is missing altogether...such is its importance compared to agape, philea and storge. English has one word for all of these....it is so inadequate IMO.
The Jews were not chosen because they were any better than any other people. God had to bring his savior into the world, and who better to use as the vehicle for this than the descendants of the world's most faithful man?
The only thing that made the nation holy was God's presence with them and the guidance he gave to their leaders. By their conduct they proved unworthy on their own merit. So their flaws were our flaws...their victories were our victories...their defeats were our defeats. They are representative of the human race, but were the only nation who were bound by God's laws. You only had to be born into this nation to have the law like a noose around your neck. Paul called the Law a "curse" because it was designed to make manifest their sins and to remind them by their weekly sacrifices, of their need for a savior.....it was also to teach by example what happens when you obey God, with resultant blessings...and what happens when you disobey and face God's wrath. (which at times was very harsh)
Unlike Israel who were bound to God's law by birth, Christians must choose to become disciples of Jesus and have the law of love apply in their everyday lives.
I cannot look at what man is doing and feel optimistic about any of it. Humans are selfish to the nth degree and we are seeing what God had foretold long ago.....a revealing of the depth of the corruption that drives everything this world stands for....a reflection of its god and ruler. (1 John 5:19)
2 Peter 3:9-10....
"Jehovah is not slow concerning his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire anyone to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance. 10 But Jehovah’s day will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar, but the elements being intensely hot will be dissolved, and earth and the works in it will be exposed."
We have only just begun to see the rot, exposed as never before.....satan's trilogy for world rulership is in three arenas...political, commercial and religious.....we have barely seen the tip of the iceberg. People will be shocked at what will be revealed in the future in all three of these arenas. There is a time of reckoning approaching that none of us will be able to escape.
Go back to Genesis and see what God first purposed for the earth and his creation upon it......that is what we will return to once God has established the validity of his Sovereignty over mankind and resolved all the issues related to the abuse of free will....the very thing that got us into this mess to start with.
Free will was not a mistake...it was a precious gift when used in accordance with God's commands.....God is proving that free will just needs time to learn how to drive it. We know we succeed when our will conforms to God's will, and that humans can adjust their actions if their will interferes with the free will of others.
Imagine living in a world where everyone was considerate and loving, all worshiping the same God. (Revelation 21:2-4).....this is the world I hope to live in one day soon with no pain, grief, suffering or death....its the one we lost all those thousands of years ago. Jesus linked the end of this world system with his coming back to rule in his Kingdom. He said that the days indicating his return would be "like the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37-39) and here we are.....the earth is again filled with violence and immorality at a time in history when we have no excuses to offer for our barbarity. Jesus came to get us back to the paradise conditions of Eden.
What do you look forward to?
A tiny part. We have lost the true definition of love. Most people think that the love expressed in love songs defines what love is, but when you examine the scriptures, the word for that kind of love (Greek, eros) is missing altogether...such is its importance compared to agape, philea and storge. English has one word for all of these....it is so inadequate IMO.
I couldn't agree more. He has equipped us with all we need to fight our sinful inclinations and to overcome the influences around us to comply with the world and its changing standards. God's standards never change, so keeping to them even in every age would have its challenges.
The Jews were not chosen because they were any better than any other people. God had to bring his savior into the world, and who better to use as the vehicle for this than the descendants of the world's most faithful man?
The only thing that made the nation holy was God's presence with them and the guidance he gave to their leaders. By their conduct they proved unworthy on their own merit. So their flaws were our flaws...their victories were our victories...their defeats were our defeats. They are representative of the human race, but were the only nation who were bound by God's laws. You only had to be born into this nation to have the law like a noose around your neck. Paul called the Law a "curse" because it was designed to make manifest their sins and to remind them by their weekly sacrifices, of their need for a savior.....it was also to teach by example what happens when you obey God, with resultant blessings...and what happens when you disobey and face God's wrath. (which at times was very harsh)
Unlike Israel who were bound to God's law by birth, Christians must choose to become disciples of Jesus and have the law of love apply in their everyday lives.
I cannot look at what man is doing and feel optimistic about any of it. Humans are selfish to the nth degree and we are seeing what God had foretold long ago.....a revealing of the depth of the corruption that drives everything this world stands for....a reflection of its god and ruler. (1 John 5:19)
2 Peter 3:9-10....
"Jehovah is not slow concerning his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire anyone to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance. 10 But Jehovah’s day will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar, but the elements being intensely hot will be dissolved, and earth and the works in it will be exposed."
We have only just begun to see the rot, exposed as never before.....satan's trilogy for world rulership is in three arenas...political, commercial and religious.....we have barely seen the tip of the iceberg. People will be shocked at what will be revealed in the future in all three of these arenas. There is a time of reckoning approaching that none of us will be able to escape.
Go back to Genesis and see what God first purposed for the earth and his creation upon it......that is what we will return to once God has established the validity of his Sovereignty over mankind and resolved all the issues related to the abuse of free will....the very thing that got us into this mess to start with.
Free will was not a mistake...it was a precious gift when used in accordance with God's commands.....God is proving that free will just needs time to learn how to drive it. We know we succeed when our will conforms to God's will, and that humans can adjust their actions if their will interferes with the free will of others.
Imagine living in a world where everyone was considerate and loving, all worshiping the same God. (Revelation 21:2-4).....this is the world I hope to live in one day soon with no pain, grief, suffering or death....its the one we lost all those thousands of years ago. Jesus linked the end of this world system with his coming back to rule in his Kingdom. He said that the days indicating his return would be "like the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37-39) and here we are.....the earth is again filled with violence and immorality at a time in history when we have no excuses to offer for our barbarity. Jesus came to get us back to the paradise conditions of Eden.
What do you look forward to?
As I said, we are all flawed by sin to a greater or lesser degree.
Marriage is God's arrangement....monogamy never leads to STD's. Sex for married couples is their business....the only proviso is not to engage in activities that are depraved or unnatural. Our conscience should come into effect here. Sex is not "dirty" unless we make it so.
The Bible recommends NOT having more children that you can realistically care for.
1 Timothy 5:8....
"Certainly if anyone does not provide for those who are his own, and especially for those who are members of his household, he has disowned the faith and is worse than a person without faith."
STD's are the result of multiple sexual partners. The Bible recommends monogamy. One husband...one wife. The human body is designed for monogamy.....our psyche is too, otherwise we would feel not sense of betrayal if out partner strayed.
Sex addiction is not healthy or natural. But if married couples wanted to have sex 10 times a day, there is nor law of God that says they can't. It is up to individuals to self regulate.
We all have our own view of the way it is....but to those of us who subscribe to the Bible's teachings, we can see that any sexual relations outside of scriptural marriage is forbidden. Even masturbation is not approved by God. Sexual activity is reserved for married people and those who are not married have to control their urges. It is very much a test of obedience. You have to love God more than you love yourself.
The omission is because it is irrelevant. Sexual immorality knows no gender. Sexual orientation makes no difference...immorality is immorality. All have the same penalty.
What if your 'orientation' is towards children?......other people's partners....or animals? Is any of that more or less wrong somehow? You can't help your sexual orientation.....but you can control its expression if you have the right motivation.
It has nothing to do with the way "I" feel. I call it as I see what the Bible determines as to what is immoral and what is not. If the Bible's definitions do not suit you, I don't see anyone with a big stick forcing to to comply. It has to be voluntary....do you understand the difference? Willing compliance does not involve "poor me". There is no sense of 'deprivation' because the desires of the flesh yield to the desire of the heart to observe the laws of God out of love for him and respect for his creation. It is a willing compliance....a sacrifice that does not go unnoticed or unrewarded.
God does not force people to worship him...and he never will. He has no need to enforce any of his laws for those who have no want or need to abide by them. They will simply not have a place in his Kingdom when it comes to rule the world.....and for atheists, it is giving them what they want and expect anyway. He actually likes it when people are up front about their worship....for or against......what he hates are the hypocrites....the pretenders who apply a little as if it were a lot. He says 'be hot or cold...but don't be lukewarm'.
Can you be more specific? What 'one or two things could the Bible writers know squat about'? What things are conveniently ignored by supposing that "the rules changed"....I'd like to know....I am assuming that you mean the difference between what the Jews were taught under their law, as opposed to what Jesus and his apostles taught? I will let you clarify before I respond.
Be as blunt as you wish, I am genuinely interested in what these 'convenient' things are according to your view.
What am I personally applying to others that I don't apply to myself? Be specific.
I do not believe that the Bible is 'the word of human beings of long ago and limited in their knowledge'. These human secretaries wrote as they were inspired by the Creator to record history for the benefit of those who love God in any generation, past or present. Their limitations were not his limitations.
How can God change his standards when he is the same for all eternity? He will not alter his standards to suit us....it is we who need to alter our standards to suit him....but only if we want what he is offering.
There are various ways to argue from a pro-LGBT Christian position. See this:
https://www.religioustolerance.org/homosexu3.htm
Homophobes often use leading mistranslations and misinterpretations to justify their homophobia.
PoetPhilosopher
Veteran Member
The links within that link, do a good job of describing how I feel - that the Bible can't be used as the only guide to life due to it being proven to be a bit unreliable at such a thing. Think Creationism vs. evolution, the Flood, and a number of other things. I feel like our real guides are mostly inside. This is somewhat compatible with Christians who claim we are being guided by the Holy Spirit, but then there tends to exist a turn where it's further stated "The Holy Spirit is just there to help you interpret the Bible" among some.
I also see that each person's conscience says different things. Which leaves the question of who exactly is thinking with their conscience, which group.
I thank @Deeje and others for the interesting comments so far.
I was a Catholic. The Holy Spirit is God in Christian belief and what's more, He is God making His home within us and sanctifying us (God making His temple within the human heart). That's a big bit more involved than what you're claiming. That sounds like an Evangelical Protestant take.
Which is more aligned with reality?
JesusKnowsYou
Active Member
I do not personally believe that being a homosexual is completely free from nature or choice.
However, I do believe that performing homosexual acts is sinful and further separates us from God.
I believe that we are all born with certain weaknesses that cause us to lean toward committing one sin or another.
Some of us may be born with a same-sex attraction, but whether or not they choose to act on that attraction is left up for them to decide.
I believe that we can all overcome our weaknesses and sins through the Lord Jesus Christ.
All of us are filled with both weaknesses and sins. Even those who commit homosexual acts can come to Him and find strength and forgiveness.
All religion seems to be is a test of obedience, if I’m honest. Where is the connection? The connection with, I guess you might call it, Jehova? By simple obedience? I could get a dog to obey me. That doesn’t make me its God.
I guess I’m becoming more curmudgeonly. I want more than rules and obedience. I want a sincere connection.
You misunderstand....if all God wanted was mindless obedience then he could have created robots to serve him. Think of all the problems that would have avoided! But that is not the way God made us. He gave us his qualities so that we could be fitting representative of him in our role as caretakers of this planet and its inhabitants. He wanted us to take as good a care of this planet as he would....but first we had to learn to drive free will so that it can be the blessing he intended it to be, instead of the curse it became with our imperfection.
The things that God wants from his children are love, loyalty and respect.....its what every parent wants from their children....but we cant force our children to love us...we can make them afraid not to obey us, but that is not the same. Christendom paints God as some kind of capricious despot who will roast people alive if he doesn't get his way.....that is not the God I know.
To willingly submit to persecution and death because of our love for someone requires that we have a great depth of love for them. Fear can never make you love anyone....in fact fear works the opposite way. And when you have an enemy who is portraying you as a selfish monster, it is doubly hard to show your goodness. Gratefully God can help us to see past the propaganda put out by the devil....but only if we want to.
That is what I wanted too...but I never found the grounds for such a connection when I was in Christendom. It was only when I studied the Bible with JW's that I discovered who Jehovah really is.....and that he desires to get to know us, and to reveal himself to us. The person I found was the most wonderful and loving Father I could ever have imagined. He is never demanding, even though he has the same ground-rules that apply to all....none of them are unreasonable. In fact for Christians there are only two laws....'to love God with everything we are (mind heart and soul) and to love our neighbor as ourselves'. You can't apply the second without fulfilling the first. You can't love someone that deeply without first getting to really know them.