Sounds like another good, old-fashioned religious threat, to me.Well, if one shows up, he/she/it won't be Baha'i, if I have it right. The Kitab-i-Aqdas says there won't be another for a thousand years.
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Sounds like another good, old-fashioned religious threat, to me.Well, if one shows up, he/she/it won't be Baha'i, if I have it right. The Kitab-i-Aqdas says there won't be another for a thousand years.
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Sounds like another good, old-fashioned religious threat, to me.
As you know, I think this is a bad idea. Repression, IMHO, is unsustainable and damaging. My personal opinion is that you can live a LGBTQ+ lifestyle and still resonate with the will of God.
If the story is true, the Law was given a long time ago. We're not the same people that they were. We didn't experience the Exodus.
To put my opinion in perspective; try to imagine that the story in the OT is true and that the Law is real and authoritative. If so, that means that by the time the prohibition against homosexuality was introduced officially to the nation of Israel, the people had witnessed the 10 plagues and the parting of the sea. The were in the presence of the clouds of glory, manna was falling from heaven, etc.... Try to imagine what it would feel like to be a human being witnessing all of that...
In light of this, it makes sense, doesn't it? After experiencing the Exodus and the Mount Sinai event, eating heavenly manna every day.... would you be thinking about sex or your own personal desires? I doubt it. I think you would be focusing on learning the law, and following the law, and enjoying the manna ( hopefully )
Do you see what I mean?
Sexual desire is a natural part of being human, but as with all human desires, it needs to be controlled. We have a need for food, but an unnatural desire for food can lead to gluttony, obesity and a string of health problems.
The Bible speaks of the benefits of wine (Jesus' first miracle was turning water into wine) but overindulging leads to drunkenness and a loss of control. It too, when not controlled, can lead to alcoholism and all the things that accompany it....domestic violence, drink driving, health issues etc.
We all love our cell phones, but there is a time when it's use becomes an addiction, especially among our youth. Cyber bullying is now one of the main triggers for the epidemic of teen suicide. Are you seeing where I am going with this?
It's about self-control, which the Bible says is a product of God's spirit. If we have problems managing our conduct which may be out of aligament with God's laws, then we have a way to curb those natural desires by asking God for help. Then working in harmony with our prayers....giving God some effort to bless. He will not do it for us.
Galatians 5:19-24....
"19 Now the works of the flesh are plainly seen, and they are sexual immorality, uncleanness, brazen conduct, 20 idolatry, spiritism, hostility, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, dissensions, divisions, sects, 21 envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and things like these. I am forewarning you about these things, the same way I already warned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s Kingdom."
There is no misunderstanding this directive, or the consequences of disobedience in any of those activities. But Paul goes on to list the results of obeying God in our lives....
"22 On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, 23 mildness, self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Moreover, those who belong to Christ Jesus have nailed to the stake the flesh together with its passions and desires."
We are not left to languish in misery. Having God's spirit to help us overcome what might be any strong desire, will have good results. We are the drivers of our own vehicle....the captains of our own ship.....you see? It's all about our attitude.
That is simply not true for those who genuinely love God. There is no way to disobey God without consequences. Gender issues from God's perspective can be addressed through redirecting our focus off our fleshly desires and onto the job at hand, which Jesus said had to be accomplished before God rectifies all that is wrong with this world. (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20)
Yes, I see someone trying to justify what God condemns.
God's reasonable laws were given to human beings with an expectation that compliance would follow. His laws and standards do not change to suit us, no matter what our circumstances are. Justification only makes people feel better about their disobedience. It does not excuse their behavior, nor does it negate the seriousness of it or take away the stated consequences.
I have come to realize that humans are desperate creatures who can justify all manner of things so that their consciences do not keep prodding them. But I believe that we can all do what God commands....it's just that so many of us simply don't want to.
Jeremiah 17:9-10....
" 9 The heart is more treacherous than anything else and is desperate.
Who can know it?
10 I, Jehovah, am searching the heart,
Examining the innermost thoughts,
To give to each one according to his ways,
According to the fruitage of his works."
There it is.....we will reap what we sow.
Love of God is our primary concern
Thank you Deeje. I appreciate the perspective, the scholarship, and the sense of humor.
Since I can't dispute anything you said above, maybe I can respond this way?
Deeje said:Love of God is our primary concern
I agree.
I think it's a process. I don't think that gender and sexuality should interfere with it.Thank you.
If we truly love God, then his will is more important than ours. If it's not, then we have lost the plot.
What do you think the plot is?
I think it's a process. I don't think that gender and sexuality should interfere with it.
Would it bother atheists? Of course not. I just can't help but notice the obvious -- that it is what you say it is, a roadblock to prevent other "messengers." Of course, Islam has one of those, too, in that they claim that Mohammed is the last prophet that will ever be, and Christians do it to, claiming that Christ is still with them and will (in some fashion) come again -- whatever the Parousia is supposed to look like.The Baha'i attachment isn't a "threat" I take seriously. It's just a Baha'i roadblock to prevent another "messenger" from weasling in and leading Baha'i astray before the Kitab-i-aqdas agenda can be "well-founded". If Jesus was to pop in before 1,000 years are up and say: "Hi, remember me?", Baha'i would reject him, which really wouldn't matter to atheists, would it?
"I was thinking more about the big picture. Gender and sexuality is just a small part of it. "I was thinking more about the big picture. Gender and sexuality is just a small part of it. We are all living in the same world, but worlds apart in our individual thinking.....so what do you see as the purpose of our being......the reason for our struggles......the value of the laws and lessons contained in the scriptures.....and what the final outcome means for us and this planet that man is now destroying......is there a purpose to it all in your world view?
Sexual desire is a natural part of being human, but as with all human desires, it needs to be controlled. We have a need for food, but an unnatural desire for food can lead to gluttony, obesity and a string of health problems.
The Bible speaks of the benefits of wine (Jesus' first miracle was turning water into wine) but overindulging leads to drunkenness and a loss of control. It too, when not controlled, can lead to alcoholism and all the things that accompany it....domestic violence, drink driving, health issues etc.
We all love our cell phones, but there is a time when it's use becomes an addiction, especially among our youth. Cyber bullying is now one of the main triggers for the epidemic of teen suicide. Are you seeing where I am going with this?
It's about self-control, which the Bible says is a product of God's spirit. If we have problems managing our conduct which may be out of aligament with God's laws, then we have a way to curb those natural desires by asking God for help. Then working in harmony with our prayers....giving God some effort to bless. He will not do it for us.
Galatians 5:19-24....
"19 Now the works of the flesh are plainly seen, and they are sexual immorality, uncleanness, brazen conduct, 20 idolatry, spiritism, hostility, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, dissensions, divisions, sects, 21 envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and things like these. I am forewarning you about these things, the same way I already warned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s Kingdom."
There is no misunderstanding this directive, or the consequences of disobedience in any of those activities. But Paul goes on to list the results of obeying God in our lives....
"22 On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, 23 mildness, self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Moreover, those who belong to Christ Jesus have nailed to the stake the flesh together with its passions and desires."
We are not left to languish in misery. Having God's spirit to help us overcome what might be any strong desire, will have good results. We are the drivers of our own vehicle....the captains of our own ship.....you see? It's all about our attitude.
That is simply not true for those who genuinely love God. There is no way to disobey God without consequences. Gender issues from God's perspective can be addressed through redirecting our focus off our fleshly desires and onto the job at hand, which Jesus said had to be accomplished before God rectifies all that is wrong with this world. (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20)
Yes, I see someone trying to justify what God condemns.
God's reasonable laws were given to human beings with an expectation that compliance would follow. His laws and standards do not change to suit us, no matter what our circumstances are. Justification only makes people feel better about their disobedience. It does not excuse their behavior, nor does it negate the seriousness of it or take away the stated consequences.
I have come to realize that humans are desperate creatures who can justify all manner of things so that their consciences do not keep prodding them. But I believe that we can all do what God commands....it's just that so many of us simply don't want to.
Jeremiah 17:9-10....
" 9 The heart is more treacherous than anything else and is desperate.
Who can know it?
10 I, Jehovah, am searching the heart,
Examining the innermost thoughts,
To give to each one according to his ways,
According to the fruitage of his works."
There it is.....we will reap what we sow.
I can't help noticing that you are willing to call "sexual desire" natural, but make zero reference to "sexual orientation." I've no doubt there's a reason for that omission.Sexual desire is a natural part of being human, but as with all human desires, it needs to be controlled. We have a need for food, but an unnatural desire for food can lead to gluttony, obesity and a string of health problems.
The Bible speaks of the benefits of wine (Jesus' first miracle was turning water into wine) but overindulging leads to drunkenness and a loss of control. It too, when not controlled, can lead to alcoholism and all the things that accompany it....domestic violence, drink driving, health issues etc.
We all love our cell phones, but there is a time when it's use becomes an addiction, especially among our youth. Cyber bullying is now one of the main triggers for the epidemic of teen suicide. Are you seeing where I am going with this?
It's about self-control, which the Bible says is a product of God's spirit. If we have problems managing our conduct which may be out of aligament with God's laws, then we have a way to curb those natural desires by asking God for help. Then working in harmony with our prayers....giving God some effort to bless. He will not do it for us.
Galatians 5:19-24....
"19 Now the works of the flesh are plainly seen, and they are sexual immorality, uncleanness, brazen conduct, 20 idolatry, spiritism, hostility, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, dissensions, divisions, sects, 21 envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and things like these. I am forewarning you about these things, the same way I already warned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s Kingdom."
There is no misunderstanding this directive, or the consequences of disobedience in any of those activities. But Paul goes on to list the results of obeying God in our lives....
"22 On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, 23 mildness, self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Moreover, those who belong to Christ Jesus have nailed to the stake the flesh together with its passions and desires."
We are not left to languish in misery. Having God's spirit to help us overcome what might be any strong desire, will have good results. We are the drivers of our own vehicle....the captains of our own ship.....you see? It's all about our attitude.
That is simply not true for those who genuinely love God. There is no way to disobey God without consequences. Gender issues from God's perspective can be addressed through redirecting our focus off our fleshly desires and onto the job at hand, which Jesus said had to be accomplished before God rectifies all that is wrong with this world. (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20)
Yes, I see someone trying to justify what God condemns.
God's reasonable laws were given to human beings with an expectation that compliance would follow. His laws and standards do not change to suit us, no matter what our circumstances are. Justification only makes people feel better about their disobedience. It does not excuse their behavior, nor does it negate the seriousness of it or take away the stated consequences.
I have come to realize that humans are desperate creatures who can justify all manner of things so that their consciences do not keep prodding them. But I believe that we can all do what God commands....it's just that so many of us simply don't want to.
Jeremiah 17:9-10....
" 9 The heart is more treacherous than anything else and is desperate.
Who can know it?
10 I, Jehovah, am searching the heart,
Examining the innermost thoughts,
To give to each one according to his ways,
According to the fruitage of his works."
There it is.....we will reap what we sow.
"I was thinking more about the big picture. Gender and sexuality is just a small part of it. "
I agree that gender and sexuality are a small part of the big picture as well.
I couldn't agree more. He has equipped us with all we need to fight our sinful inclinations and to overcome the influences around us to comply with the world and its changing standards. God's standards never change, so keeping to them even in every age would have its challenges."what do you see as the purpose of our being reason for our struggles?"
I don't know for sure. I think that God is rooting for us to overcome our inherent flaws. I think God finds our successes in spite of our flaws to be beautiful.
"the value of the laws and lessons contained in the scriptures?"
( Focusing on the Old Testament, because, that is part that includes to prohibition on Homosexuality ) The Old Testament is the story of a flawed, but holy nation.
"and what the final outcome means for us and this planet that man is now destroying?"
If you're asking me to speculate, then, pick the most optimistic outcome, and that's my answer.
"is there a purpose to it all in your world view?"
I feel like there is a purpose; but, I don't know what it is.
See here’s where I have a disconnect with your line of reasoning. You are readily able to use all these illustrations for why one shouldn’t overindulge. Too much Wine leads to drunkenness, too much food leads to gluttony and so forth. Fine.
But hypothetically speaking, what about monogamous same sex couples? Both still virgins upon their commencement of their relationship. What bad things will result in their relationship that is inherently unique to same sex couples? Health issues abounds in having too many kids. STDs would be more of a problem for a polyamorous/polygamist couple. Sex addiction is blind to sexual orientation.
It starts to become more abstract when you apply the same illustrations in a broader sense to the gay couple. Which makes it appear not entirely reasonable. It’s more like a simple test of obedience. Which is above and beyond for what the heterosexual couple have to go through. They can actually experience all of their human desires (even if they restrain themselves) with the out known as marriage. A little unfair, but whatever.
Just offering a perspective
I can't help noticing that you are willing to call "sexual desire" natural, but make zero reference to "sexual orientation." I've no doubt there's a reason for that omission.
One of those reasons, of course, is that it must be a completely wonderful thing for you that your "desire" happens to match your "orientation," and therefore (so long as you are "in control") you get to go for it. It leaves out, however, what must underlie your thinking, is that if one's orientation happens to not be the most usual, you believe the requirement to be "sorry, but never, ever, in all of your life, are you permitted to give in to your desires - even if you exercise lots of control. Tough toenails, and don't you wish you were just like me."
Now, for some people who live in a real world, one that is defined by at least one or two thing that the writers of the Bible couldn't know squat about, are aware that the Bible also tells you a lot of other things that you must not do, but which you conveniently ignore by supposing that "the rules changed." (Completely ignoring, of course, by reason of inconvenience, that Jesus said the rules don't change -- "not a tittle or a jot.")
Which leaves us with -- the Bible contains the "commandments" of human beings, of long long ago, limited in their knowledge, which you are willing to ignore when convenient, but wish to apply to others where you personally don't agree.
Total, unequivocal hypocrisy. Sorry to say it so bluntly.
There are various ways to argue from a pro-LGBT Christian position. See this:Basically, because ultimately positions such as Deeje's are the ones with Biblical support and backing, I have never understood how a homosexuality could be Christian, and how Amy of them can ignore that fact Jehovah said they are to be executed, and Jesus did say he changed nothing of the Law. And Paul wasn't very fond of it either. At best there is Jesus who said nothing. But he also failed to mention pedophiles. Not military leaders, although Jesus is portrayed as having treated one no differently than anyone else. But Jehovah Law is still has law, those who say it doesn't apply or lessen it will be counted among the least.
There are various ways to argue from a pro-LGBT Christian position. See this:
https://www.religioustolerance.org/homosexu3.htm
Homophobes often use leading mistranslations and misinterpretations to justify their homophobia.
I was a Catholic. The Holy Spirit is God in Christian belief and what's more, He is God making His home within us and sanctifying us (God making His temple within the human heart). That's a big bit more involved than what you're claiming. That sounds like an Evangelical Protestant take.This is somewhat compatible with Christians who claim we are being guided by the Holy Spirit, but then there tends to exist a turn where it's further stated "The Holy Spirit is just there to help you interpret the Bible" among some.
Which is more aligned with reality?Which leaves the question of who exactly is thinking with their conscience, which group.
I do not personally believe that being a homosexual is completely free from nature or choice.Hope you are having a great day! @Deeje
Just wanted to ask...
Let's say someone is so exposed to environmental wrongs (estrogen in the water, etc), they couldn't possibly come back to a cis and/or straight way of living. What if they are miserable the way they are, and want to try an LGBTQ+ way of life?
As for my own stance on this topic, don't worry about it too much. I'm not going to go out of my way to display that I'm an LGBTQ+-supporting theist, just wanted to ask a question on LGBTQ+ through more of a religious, instead of a political, lens. Kind of a topic to allow the non-LGBTQ+ religious people to speak if they have something real to say, instead of them having to say it on the pro-LGBTQ+ support threads.
You may be right that I'm not fully Christian in that I consider Christianity one puzzle piece, and find the heart of the faith I've discovered, Baha'I, to be more about an approach of acceptance of all beliefs even through the ideas on afterlife. Note that I'm saying I find it more compatible, but not 100% compatible, with LGBTQ+. Some of the philosophies behind Baha'i faith itself.
Bonus question: How do we know what God wants?
All religion seems to be is a test of obedience, if I’m honest. Where is the connection? The connection with, I guess you might call it, Jehova? By simple obedience? I could get a dog to obey me. That doesn’t make me its God.As I said, we are all flawed by sin to a greater or lesser degree.
Marriage is God's arrangement....monogamy never leads to STD's. Sex for married couples is their business....the only proviso is not to engage in activities that are depraved or unnatural. Our conscience should come into effect here. Sex is not "dirty" unless we make it so.
The Bible recommends NOT having more children that you can realistically care for.
1 Timothy 5:8....
"Certainly if anyone does not provide for those who are his own, and especially for those who are members of his household, he has disowned the faith and is worse than a person without faith."
STD's are the result of multiple sexual partners. The Bible recommends monogamy. One husband...one wife. The human body is designed for monogamy.....our psyche is too, otherwise we would feel not sense of betrayal if out partner strayed.
Sex addiction is not healthy or natural. But if married couples wanted to have sex 10 times a day, there is nor law of God that says they can't. It is up to individuals to self regulate.
We all have our own view of the way it is....but to those of us who subscribe to the Bible's teachings, we can see that any sexual relations outside of scriptural marriage is forbidden. Even masturbation is not approved by God. Sexual activity is reserved for married people and those who are not married have to control their urges. It is very much a test of obedience. You have to love God more than you love yourself.
All religion seems to be is a test of obedience, if I’m honest. Where is the connection? The connection with, I guess you might call it, Jehova? By simple obedience? I could get a dog to obey me. That doesn’t make me its God.
I guess I’m becoming more curmudgeonly. I want more than rules and obedience. I want a sincere connection.