From atheism to idolatry?

[Sunstone]

What does "worship" mean, to you?

Although I can't speak for him, I am under the impression that @Piculet is equivocating on the term. In some instances, he seems to mean 'worship' in the conventional sense of the word. In other instances, he seems to mean something more along the line of 'values'.

 

[ChristineM]

I'm an atheist on at least two days of the week, and I worship the ground upon which @ChristineM treads.

I should hope the worship happens on the other 5 days, I don't want to disturb your non worship time
But thank you profusely for those loving days, much appreciated

P.S. where do i send your fee

 

[sun rise]

The blog posting struck me as superficial and incomplete.

On a personal level, me saying that I "worship the ground" my beloved wife walks on might sound like I've made my wife into a god, an idol, But that's not the intent, of course. So even beyond the dictionary definition of the word is how the word is used in ordinary conversation.

One of the issues is the definition of worship. To a believer, that typically involves rituals and ceremonies to the object being worshiped. So I specifically disagree with what is written after the "and" For idolatry entails worshiping something unworthy of worship, and if God does not exist, then nothing is worthy of worship.

If we look at a common definition of the word: Definition of worship (Entry 2 of 2) 1 : reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power also : an act of expressing such reverence. 2 : a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual. 3 : extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem worship of the dollar.

Without getting into the judgement of what is extravagant, I can and do respect and admire people who are on the front lines of COVID-19 patient care. I admire the beauty of nature and the genius of great composers. None of which involves turning them into a god or gods.

And from what I know, atheists can and do have a great deal of respect and admiration for nature and people without turning them into gods.

 

[ChristineM]

I came by this blog post.

Idolatry and Atheism


From what I understand, the writer is saying one cannot be an atheist consistently — that one lapses to either idolatry or nihilism.

But I think it is interesting they write also that an atheist should worship nothing — to be an atheist — because I don't think that's possible for man.

Do atheists worship nothing or do they admit to worshipping something, but consider that an unimportant point?

Atheism : disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

Nothing more, nothing less, i can, if i choose admire whatever i want. My husband, my children, the area i live, its forests and rivers, my car, coffee ice cream, bacon sandwiches, It makes me no less of an atheist.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Atheists can and do commit themselves totally to things worthy of that in life, and will revere as "sacred" many things, such as family, community, the planet, etc.

A good post, but I just have this one little quibble. Rather than saying "revere as 'sacred,'" I would much prefer a formulation such as "hold in high esteem, or as worthy of protecting and enabling," or some such. I don't hold anything as "sacred," but I do hold many things in quite high esteem, and there are many things that I think are eminently worthy of trying to protect -- our planet, for instance, since it's just now the only place we've got to live.

 

[Father Heathen]

Then are you a nihilist?

Finding meaning and purpose isn't the same as "worship."

 

[QuestioningMind]

I would like to know whether you worship anything and if you do not, what is your opinion about the blog post or the point I made in the OP (if you don't want to read the blog post)?

Are they nihilists? What do you think about what the writer implies about an atheist who worships nothing?

I would like to know whether you worship anything and if you do not, what is your opinion about the blog post or the point I made in the OP (if you don't want to read the blog post)?

I find nothing worthy of my worship. You said you didn't think it was possible for man to not worship something... so I'm asking what you imagine it is that I worship.

 

[ChristineM]

I came by this blog post.

Idolatry and Atheism


From what I understand, the writer is saying one cannot be an atheist consistently — that one lapses to either idolatry or nihilism.

But I think it is interesting they write also that an atheist should worship nothing — to be an atheist — because I don't think that's possible for man.

Do atheists worship nothing or do they admit to worshipping something, but consider that an unimportant point?

It seems from his writings (although i can find no data to confirm) that Mr Vallicella is of religious belief writing about what he know nothing (atheism) except his own beliefs.

 

[Quintessence]

Considering idolatry is an ethnocentric, loaded, and inherently problematic concept to begin with, I would suggest chucking it into the trash bin. You get to decide what is worthy of worship for just one person - yourself. You don't get to decide what other people's gods are or aren't. Or even if they care to use words like "gods" or "worship" for that matter. There are certainly arguments to be had for the uselessness of terms like "atheist" and "theist," but hinging it the ethnocentric concept of idolatry isn't a particularly good one to my mind.

 

[Piculet]

I would like to know whether you worship anything and if you do not, what is your opinion about the blog post or the point I made in the OP (if you don't want to read the blog post)?

I find nothing worthy of my worship. You said you didn't think it was possible for man to not worship something... so I'm asking what you imagine it is that I worship.

I have no interest in you personally so I'll pass this typical provocation of "What about me."

In general though, I think a lot of atheists do in a sense worship nature and science and many even themselves.

 

[Piculet]

It seems from his writings (although i can find no data to confirm) that Mr Vallicella is of religious belief writing about what he know nothing (atheism) except his own beliefs.

Is there someone on this forum who would like to criticise Mr Vallicella for that?

 

[Piculet]

Finding meaning and purpose isn't the same as "worship."

I know. The nihilism is supposed to be some kind of an opposite. But thinking that one is in control of what one isn't in control of, borders on worship in my books.

 

[Piculet]

A good post, but I just have this one little quibble. Rather than saying "revere as 'sacred,'" I would much prefer a formulation such as "hold in high esteem, or as worthy of protecting and enabling," or some such. I don't hold anything as "sacred," but I do hold many things in quite high esteem, and there are many things that I think are eminently worthy of trying to protect -- our planet, for instance, since it's just now the only place we've got to live.

I think they used quotation marks for the very reason. Money isn't sacred, but people do commit suicide when they have none (because they lost it all) and there are hundreds of similar examples of things people hold in "high esteem". Something that they depend on and without it they're nothing (they feel).

 

[Quintessence]

I have no interest in you personally so I'll pass this typical provocation of "What about me."

In general though, I think a lot of atheists do in a sense worship nature and science and many even themselves.

I don't disagree, but I think we have to be careful here.

As someone who does worship nature (or more accurately, I don't recognize any distinction between gods and aspects of our reality be it "nature" or abstract concepts like "science" or "creativity"), I'm aware of distinctions between people who identify as atheists and people like myself. The depth isn't there for them. Folks who identify as atheists in my culture may deeply respect the sciences (which could be understood as worship) but they don't have a religious holiday where paying homage to science is an actual theme of their religious celebrations. I, on the other hand, do.

 

[Left Coast]

Although I can't speak for him, I am under the impression that @Piculet is equivocating on the term. In some instances, he seems to mean 'worship' in the conventional sense of the word. In other instances, he seems to mean something more along the line of 'values'.

It's a common apologetics technique.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I think they used quotation marks for the very reason. Money isn't sacred, but people do commit suicide when they have none (because they lost it all) and there are hundreds of similar examples of things people hold in "high esteem". Something that they depend on and without it they're nothing (they feel).

Are you really that shallow and unthinking? Money isn't the end, for most people in this world, it's just a means to any of several ends. The man, a husband and father, who can no longer support his family because he's lost his job (and therefore his income) is not bereft by the loss of money -- he's bereft by the loss of his ability to do what he feels he needs to for his family. That sort of thing hurts people deeply, but it has nothing to do with money being "sacred."

A man (or at least a man as I see them) has a deep need to feel that he is doing what he must to siupport his family. Many good men can cope with the loss of dignity of losing a high-paying job, and having to take a lower-paying one, so long as they can continue to do that. They can live with no longer being the boss, and now just being a lowly worker, so long as they can be the breadwinner for their family. Many who immigrate to new countries go from being doctors and lawyers and scientists and financiers -- to become taxi drivers and store clerks. But they can maintain their dignity by still doing those jobs to the best of their abilities, and continuing to support their families.

So you are wrong -- it's not the "money." Yes, that would be an idol, and there are too many around the world who worship only that idol. But it is not the vast majority of decent people simply trying to do what is right and keep their families going.

 

[Piculet]

Are you really that shallow and unthinking? Money isn't the end, for most people in this world, it's just a means to any of several ends. The man, a husband and father, who can no longer support his family because he's lost his job (and therefore his income) is not bereft by the loss of money -- he's bereft by the loss of his ability to do what he feels he needs to for his family. That sort of thing hurts people deeply, but it has nothing to do with money being "sacred."

A man (or at least a man as I see them) has a deep need to feel that he is doing what he must to siupport his family. Many good men can cope with the loss of dignity of losing a high-paying job, and having to take a lower-paying one, so long as they can continue to do that. They can live with no longer being the boss, and now just being a lowly worker, so long as they can be the breadwinner for their family. Many who immigrate to new countries go from being doctors and lawyers and scientists and financiers -- to become taxi drivers and store clerks. But they can maintain their dignity by still doing those jobs to the best of their abilities, and continuing to support their families.

So you are wrong -- it's not the "money." Yes, that would be an idol, and there are too many around the world who worship only that idol. But it is not the vast majority of decent people simply trying to do what is right and keep their families going.

What about the family then? What kind of an end is that?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I came by this blog post.

Idolatry and Atheism


From what I understand, the writer is saying one cannot be an atheist consistently — that one lapses to either idolatry or nihilism.

But I think it is interesting they write also that an atheist should worship nothing — to be an atheist — because I don't think that's possible for man.

Do atheists worship nothing or do they admit to worshipping something, but consider that an unimportant point?

I'm not an atheist, yet I worship nothing.
It seems rational then that atheists too can not worship anything. And probably don't. Because they don't.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

What about the family then? What kind of an end is that?

I can't understand your thinking! Family is not an "end." Family simply is -- it's a part of our existence, and it requires our participation, in all our various roles within it.

Why do you have such a difficult time with ordinary human existence? Why does everything have to be about God, and your subservience to God, for you? To me, it appears that your world-view is totally distorted by your you religious zeal, none of which, I am sure, God needs at all.

 

[Revoltingest]

I came by this blog post.

Idolatry and Atheism


From what I understand, the writer is saying one cannot be an atheist consistently — that one lapses to either idolatry or nihilism.

But I think it is interesting they write also that an atheist should worship nothing — to be an atheist — because I don't think that's possible for man.

Do atheists worship nothing or do they admit to worshipping something, but consider that an unimportant point?

Worship doesn't even apply to me or others atheists I know.
What does "worship" entail to you?

For your enjoyment....