From atheism to idolatry?

[ChristineM]

Atheists believe that they don't believe in anything. But they are in denial.

FYI (again)

Atheism : disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

Nothing more, nothing less.

But feel free to misrepresent if it makes you feel superior

 

[Quintessence]

I think you misunderstand my intent in what I wrote, @Joe W .

Humans do as humans must; there are certain things core to the experience of being human that none of us can avoid. Having a worldview is one of them. Having experiences conflict with our pre-existing worldviews (and needing to find ways to reconcile that, by "lying" for example as you claim) is another. Unless you believe there is shame in being human on a fundamental level - and honestly, I wouldn't necessarily argue against you on that one considering humans are guilty of kicking of a sixth mass extinction event - this isn't about making excuses. It's about recognizing unavoidable aspects of being human and the human experience.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

I came by this blog post.

Idolatry and Atheism


From what I understand, the writer is saying one cannot be an atheist consistently — that one lapses to either idolatry or nihilism.

But I think it is interesting they write also that an atheist should worship nothing — to be an atheist — because I don't think that's possible for man.

Do atheists worship nothing or do they admit to worshipping something, but consider that an unimportant point?

I, personally, never take any relationship I have with anything to the level of "worship." I do not see the point. Nothing is objectively any more important than I am, and I am not objectively more important than anything else. There are only differences to be found... not better, not best. It makes zero sense to "worship" within that context.

 

[Quintessence]

I, personally, never take any relationship I have with anything to the level of "worship." I do not see the point. Nothing is objectively any more important than I am, and I am not objectively more important than anything else. There are only differences to be found... not better, not best. It makes zero sense to "worship" within that context.

That's actually a really interesting take on it and gets me thinking a bit on how this might relate to my own practices. I have gods and worship practices, but I also hold the perspective that everything is equally worthy (that is, nothing is more important than any other thing; all things have equal intrinsic value). For you, this means you worship nothing. But for me, it means it is worth giving thanks and praise to everything. Hmm... I wonder where our life experiences led us to different results here?

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

That's actually a really interesting take on it and gets me thinking a bit on how this might relate to my own practices. I have gods and worship practices, but I also hold the perspective that everything is equally worthy (that is, nothing is more important than any other thing; all things have equal intrinsic value). For you, this means you worship nothing. But for me, it means it is worth giving thanks and praise to everything. Hmm... I wonder where our life experiences led us to different results here?

Perhaps it is nearly the same in some sense, for I do keep in mind at all times the idea that a great many things must come together for my ongoing existence and survival. While I may not actively "thank" things - the understanding is something I keep top of mind, and, as such, I try not to take anything for granted. It is a facet of humility in the face of all that could be going wrong, and is, instead, fostering my very existence. I am grateful, in other words... I just lack what I would consider an actual, appropriate target for said gratitude.

 

[ppp]

I think you misunderstand my intent in what I wrote, @Joe W .

Humans do as humans must; there are certain things core to the experience of being human that none of us can avoid. Having a worldview is one of them. Having experiences conflict with our pre-existing worldviews (and needing to find ways to reconcile that, by "lying" for example as you claim) is another. Unless you believe there is shame in being human on a fundamental level - and honestly, I wouldn't necessarily argue against you on that one considering humans are guilty of kicking of a sixth mass extinction event - this isn't about making excuses. It's about recognizing unavoidable aspects of being human and the human experience.

You are just describing a coping mechanism and then claiming it as unavoidable. Yet humans routinely avoid it. Even when humans don't avoid it, they can and do course correct.

 

[DKH]

Do atheists worship nothing or do they admit to worshipping something, but consider that an unimportant point?

Well, the first thing that we would need to understand is the definitions of worship:

1. to honor or show reverence for a divine being or supernatural power. 2. to regard with great or extravagant respect, honor or devotion (Merriam-Webster).

It should be obvious that atheists don't support or worship divine beings or a supernatural power…However, it has been made clear (to me) that definition # 2 of worship does fit into the mindset of atheists. Examples would be: science and scientists, self and/or other humans and things pertaining to or typical of the world.

So, there are atheist who seem to worship plenty of things. But, many seem to avoid admitting this or they really don't recognize the reality of their actions. Where, it seems that their focus is only centered on the first definition and not the second…

Note: This posting is my personal opinion and should only be understood in that context.

 

[Messianic Israelite]

I came by this blog post.

Idolatry and Atheism


From what I understand, the writer is saying one cannot be an atheist consistently — that one lapses to either idolatry or nihilism.

But I think it is interesting they write also that an atheist should worship nothing — to be an atheist — because I don't think that's possible for man.

Do atheists worship nothing or do they admit to worshipping something, but consider that an unimportant point?

Hi Piculet. Good afternoon. It is interesting. Atheists will say they worship nothing but we know from the Bible that anything we put in place of Yahweh becomes an idol. Indeed, atheists may not bow down to another figure, or pray to something, but what do they put in place of Yahweh? Do they put themselves in His place, or their children, their jobs, or money etc. That void of spirituality is usually filled with something else.

 

[Hawkins]

I came by this blog post.

Idolatry and Atheism


From what I understand, the writer is saying one cannot be an atheist consistently — that one lapses to either idolatry or nihilism.

But I think it is interesting they write also that an atheist should worship nothing — to be an atheist — because I don't think that's possible for man.

Do atheists worship nothing or do they admit to worshipping something, but consider that an unimportant point?

They worship 2 major fallacies,
1) science can determine every truth
2) humans rely on evidence to get to a truth

They superficially look good to humans, but in the end are fallacies. The next question is who might have the ability to fool humans including the smartest.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I'm an atheist on at least two days of the week, and I worship the ground upon which @ChristineM treads.

Heathen! She doth float above the ground. It's schism time.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Hi Piculet. Good afternoon. It is interesting. Atheists will say they worship nothing but we know from the Bible that anything we put in place of Yahweh becomes an idol. Indeed, atheists may not bow down to another figure, or pray to something, but what do they put in place of Yahweh? Do they put themselves in His place, or their children, their jobs, or money etc. That void of spirituality is usually filled with something else.

1. Just as a theist may care for things other than their God(s), so too might an atheist. A family, for a positive example. Or drugs, for a negative one.
2. If worshipping anything other than God is idolatry, and yet theists may care for things outside of God, this logically proves that it's possible to care for things without it being 'worship'. Does each Christian worship their family? Why is it you'd change the rule for atheists?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

They worship 2 major fallacies,
1) science can determine every truth
2) humans rely on evidence to get to a truth

They superficially look good to humans, but in the end are fallacies. The next question is who might have the ability to fool humans including the smartest.

Phhht.
There is so much fallacy in this post it doesn't even qualify as strawmanning.
1) Not all (or even most) atheist 'worship' science in any sort of metaphorical sense, basically none do in a literal sense, and only some believe that science may eventually...one day...determine every truth. I'm not one of them, incidentally.
2) Plenty of humans fallaciously believe human decision making is evidence based. This isn't restricted to atheists. It appears a common trait of human nature.

 

[ppp]

2. to regard with great or extravagant respect, honor or devotion

extravagant: going beyond what is deserved or justifiable:

It should be obvious that atheists don't support or worship divine beings or a supernatural power…However, it has been made clear (to me) that definition # 2 of worship does fit into the mindset of atheists. Examples would be: science and scientists, self and/or other humans and things pertaining to or typical of the world.

What is a thing that I, Joe W, an atheist, believes about science that goes beyond what is deserved or justifiable?

 

[Roguish]

From what I understand, the writer is saying one cannot be an atheist consistently — that one lapses to either idolatry or nihilism

Of course. Atheism is not a "rooted" view. It does not "hook up" to the Transcendent at its core or foundation. Rather, its foundation is a collection of simulacra -- pure constructs that have no connection to anything outside their own (divorced) domain. Atheists do not notice this, of course, but the consistent ones do become nihilistic -- which is inevitable. Weaker atheists, in whom a remnant of intuition remains, will cling to something (anything) in order to avoid total despair. It is the weaker ones who still have a small chance to be restored to humanhood.

But I think it is interesting they write also that an atheist should worship nothing — to be an atheist — because I don't think that's possible for man.

Your right, but a hardened atheist is no longer fully man in the original sense of the word. A complete human being knows intuitively that there is a Beyond and a Prior and a Superior to the Creation and to himself. He doesn't need to ponder or research this as a question, or analyze it as a proposition -- he just knows, without articulating it for himself as a thought. When this intuition is lost -- or rather, stamped out by an insane amount of mentation -- man loses his essence and is therefore no longer fully man. But neither is he an animal, for he retains his faculty of mentation. The proper word for what he becomes starts with a T and ends with an L.

 

[Revoltingest]

Does this represent all atheists or just you?

I can only speak for myself & those few atheists I've discussed it with.

It makes sense. This is the impression I have of many atheists.

Seems cromulent.

 

[Quintessence]

You are just describing a coping mechanism and then claiming it as unavoidable. Yet humans routinely avoid it. Even when humans don't avoid it, they can and do course correct.

Yes, in a sense what I talk about here relates to coping mechanisms though it's perhaps not a direct equivalent. All people have those in order to maintain their personal wellness. When people have little resilience to life's challenges - whether it is through poor coping mechanisms or something similar - they will struggle with their health, particularly mental health. In the sense that a person who avoids using strategies to cope with life's challenges is going to have health problems, yes, coping is unavoidable and we all need to do it to be well. Reframing strange information in ways that make sense to our worldview is one way of keeping ourselves healthy as well as making peace with those who are different from us.

 

[ppp]

Yes, in a sense what I talk about here relates to coping mechanisms though it's perhaps not a direct equivalent. All people have those in order to maintain their personal wellness. When people have little resilience to life's challenges - whether it is through poor coping mechanisms or something similar - they will struggle with their health, particularly mental health. In the sense that a person who avoids using strategies to cope with life's challenges is going to have health problems, yes, coping is unavoidable and we all need to do it to be well.

I don't see that you have differentiated whatever you are trying to say from a coping mechanism. Maybe I am missing the point of this.

Reframing strange information in ways that make sense to our worldview is one way of keeping ourselves healthy as well as making peace with those who are different from us.

Someone who lies about my position, and/or tells me that they know my mind better than I do is making peace.

 

[Quintessence]

I don't see that you have differentiated whatever you are trying to say from a coping mechanism. Maybe I am missing the point of this.

If you don't see a distinction, you don't have to if that is how you see things.

Someone who lies about my position, and/or tells me that they know my mind better than I do is making peace.

What I'm trying to encourage is looking at things from their perspective. It isn't that they're trying to lie to you, or about you. It's that they have to square you in their circle, so to speak, and they are expressing that. We all do this on various things. You can view it as a "coping mechanism" if you want. We have to deal or cope with people who don't make sense in our worldview by framing it in terms we understand ourselves.

 

[ppp]

If you don't see a distinction, you don't have to if that is how you see things.

How I see things is irrelevant to how things are. A worldview is not justification for the worldview or the actions taken under it.

What I'm trying to encourage is looking at things from their perspective. It isn't that they're trying to lie to you, or about you.

What is your justification for that claim? I am not (at this point) questioning whether you coping mechanism model is an actual thing. I am questioning your ability to know that they are not trying to lie. I assume that you do acknowledge the people lie intentionally. No?

 

[Quintessence]

I'm sorry, @Joe W - I am trying to provide insight into how people think so we can better understand others, but you are seemingly not interested in that. Since we do not share the same goals in this conversation, it is not going to be very fruitful so I will not be continuing it.