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Featured For Christians. Was the flood real or just a myth?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Deeje, Nov 20, 2017.

  1. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find there is a difference between ' blind faith ' (credulity) and the faith that Jesus taught.
    Jesus used logical reasoning on the old Hebrew Scriptures as the basis for his faith, his confidence, his trust in Scripture.
    Details did matter to Jesus because Jesus did expound or explain his statements.
    Remember: Jesus' illustrative stories or parables were 'Not literal' happenings but creating a word picture in our mind to help remember what he was teaching. Plus, today's world scene is just as worded at Luke 21:11.
    Jesus was Not teaching that God is responsible for today's ' great ' earthquakes, but teaching us that such ' great ' earthquakes would be happening or occurring before Jesus, as Prince of Peace, will usher in global Peace on Earth among persons of goodwill.
    Since man's long history shows that man has dominated man to man's hurt and injury then to me the 'RED flag' is that if there would be No divine involvement into mankind's affairs that man would continue to bring ruing to Earth, instead as Revelation 11:18 B states that God will bring to ruin those ruining Earth. God will have Jesus step in to rid the Earth of wickedness as per Psalms 92:7 that the wicked will be 'destroyed forever' thus allowing for coming Peace on Earth.
     
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  2. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

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    Very true. :) In death, all cease to exist in my reality. The Trinity is not part of my belief system. Still, I am not a JW. Their dogma is flawed but differently from the flaws of the other churches.

    It seems to me that each person exists in his own reality, not quite what others think is reality, this goes for believers and atheists alike, as I see it. We are also very limited in our impression of reality. There is the immediate reality where you live, but just two miles out, you have no idea what is going on, and in the world, everything is related by others whom you have to trust to believe it actually happened. For all this, I might be living in a Zoo where I have been given the impression that things are real, but really aren't. But, I don't believe so; after all, I have been around the globe and lived in several distant places. Still, scripture to an extend tells us that the entire globe is a theatrical spectacle -- a big Zoo for the ones upstairs to enjoy.

    Unfortunately, the same flaws that believers have, atheists have. Perhaps, they are human after all! That remains to be proven, and I just read that scientifically nothing can be proven. :D:D

    If you should want a good video on the flood, the one posted here for you is very good and convincing. I will say though that in some things, I cannot agree with Prof. Walter. I also posted one very good one on the Exodus. Surely believers will have fun with that also.

    Link: >102 - A Universal Flood - Amazing Discoveries TV<
     
    #102 Grandliseur, Nov 22, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2017
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  3. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    You sound as if you believe I am some kind of gullible child....stuck in the words of Genesis with no understanding of their deeper meaning.....seriously....who gave you the impression that your interpretation is correct to anyone but yourself? :shrug: and you talk about ego! Can I ask who else believes what you believe?

    The fruit was edible, probably of a variety not seen elsewhere in the garden, since the woman noticed that it appeared to be good for food. It was not poisonous or damaging in and of itself. It simply represented what belonged to God and the theft of it was serious enough to warrant the death penalty. It was their disobedience and complete disrespect for what belonged to their Creator alone that earned them the stated penalty. But "how" the penalty was to be implemented was not stated. Did Adam know the full consequences of what his disobedience would mean for his children? Did it matter? Was he warned about going to "hell" or even told about "heaven"?

    Why did God forbid them to take the "knowledge of good and evil" for themselves? Why was it kept from them?

    Can you answer those questions?

    There is much symbolism in the literal understanding. Nothing is lost and all fully explainable if you study what Genesis says and understand the Jewish perspective of the writer. Ancient Jews had no belief in "hell" as Christendom teaches it. They had no fear of death in any afterlife.

    "it means in essence our awakening to our existential state of being."

    What sort of alien mumbo-jumbo is that?
    What is this "separateness" that you speak of...and what caused it?

    "that moment in which we realize we are alone, isolated, there is the terror death. We do not feel connected with God. We fear death. We fear isolation. We fear hell".

    Where will I find any of that in scripture as opposed to what I might find running around inside your head?
    Again, where will I find anyone who believes what you believe? (1 Corinthians 1:10)

    We don't fear "hell" because there is no such place....what humans fear is dying. Think of all the horrible ways that humans can die....death itself is nothing to fear, any more than a restful sleep. There is a reason why humans are the only creatures in existence who can contemplate their own death and imagine losing the people they love. There is no programming for any of that.

    "that innate foreboding in ourselves of dying and facing our own immortality, that we are finite, and not infinite."

    Since man is mortal but was created to live forever, do you understand the difference between everlasting life and immortality? If you did, you would see how ridiculous that statement is.
    Can you explain why we would be created with an expectation to go on living if God had created us to die? Did he make us with a "use by" date? Were we programmed to degenerate into old age, sickness and death?

    If humans were created to be immortal, then the penalty for eating the fruit could never have been implemented. Immortals cannot die.

    Is this the part where "believers" somehow sell out to evolution but still claim to believe in God? A foot in both camps? A bit of spiritual insurance perhaps? We have to make a choice....so which is it?

    Why do we hear about "magic" in connection with creation? There was no magic. Creation was carried out over eons of time in a slow and meticulous way. Each act of creation was a deliberate crafting of a particular creature, fully equipped to generate more of its own kind. It was nothing like a literal 7 day affair.....Genesis does not limit the "days" to 24 hour periods. "Creationism" has a lot to answer for because it is not taught in scripture.

    And the doors of your own "church of thought".....how many others have walked through those doors?
    Are you alone? If so can I ask why? What is it that makes you think you are right? What is there to back up what you believe?

    Closing your mind to the story of creation leads to closing your mind about Noah and the reasons for the flood. They are closely connected, real events that affect us to this day.
     
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  4. illykitty

    illykitty RF's pet cat

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    But that's exactly what's wrong with religion and beliefs. If some data comes that disproves your ideas, then you shouldn't double down but instead change and adapt. Grow and continue to grow as time goes on.

    The reason why I trust science, or the scientific method, is that it is self-correcting. Facts are simply how we understand things currently, hence why it does change over time. We try our best to study and understand reality and it's not an easy task, mistakes will be made along the way and corrections or additions will be needed.The pursuit of knowledge is never ending and it's possible we'll never discover everything or that certain things will be left uncertain. But how does this make science something untrustworthy or not worth pursuing?

    I'd rather have some uncertainty and honesty to say "this was wrong or incomplete" or "I don't know yet how this works" than to trust something that claims set in stone truths. Like this, we can cultivate curiosity about how the world works and get closer to finding how things actually work. Basically I'm comfortable with things changing and with things evolving, I simply update my views when I find them to be incorrect.
     
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  5. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    No data has come along that has disproven my beliefs. I have examined the evidence for myself and find it unconvincing.

    If I need to double down and change and adapt, then I have no truth. Truth does not need to adapt or change otherwise it never was truth at all.

    I believe that science has indoctrinated people just as much as religion has....in fact I would go so far as to say that to some people science IS their religion. A current understanding of the way things are is not to be confused with a fact. Facts do not change because they don't need to. The truth never changes.

    If science discovers something that overturns a previously held belief, then was was previously taught was never the truth to begin with."Might be" or "could be" should never be understood as "must be" unless you have proof, otherwise it is a belief, which is different to a fact.

    Now this made me smile....you basically say that religion is wrong because it can't be certain about what it teaches and then say that you can accept science for the same reason....[​IMG]

    I would rather be certain of my beliefs than walk a tightrope of uncertainty, never being sure about anything. I could not live like that. Besides, a relationship with the Creator is very a very personal thing. If one has never experienced God's hand in their lives, I guess it would be very easy to dismiss him. He has guided me all my life. I trust God, but I don't trust men.

    I have a great curiosity about the world that God created. I have learned many things that science has taught me, but when it comes to their interpretation of how life arose and changed over millions of years, I see nothing but supposition and guesswork. I understand that living things adapt to changes in environment and food sources, but to suggest that adaptation leaps outside of what science can test, is to promote something that cannot possibly be proven. Unlike other scientific theories, macro-evolution has no facts to substantiate its validity.
     
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  6. Windwalker

    Windwalker Veteran Member
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    That's not proof of the Love that is God. That's proof that men try to convert others into their ways of thinking about God for the sake of control and greater members for the churches of their own thoughts. That's more proof of the human ego.

    God is Love. God speaks for Himself. When you love another, you are speaking that Love that is God. You don't need to make up theological arguments for the Perfectly Obvious.

    Of course that entire story itself is a myth. The facts that we have seen that speak of our origins looks considerably less magical than all of that. But my point is, you're just making it up that your adopted myths are 'better' than others, more "accurate" as you somehow claim with zero proof to support it, simply because they are the ones you believe in. Yours are equally as non-scientific as every other myth out there.

    The only thing they really are is meaningful to you. That doesn't make them more accurate, but rather more practical and useful for you as a way of understanding your world, being part of the culture where the Christian myths dominate. If you were part of another culture with other myths, those myths would speak to you better.

    This too is a mythic structure your religious group has constructed for you to imagine yourself and their church as somehow part of some grand master plan of God that has you conveniently on the winning team.

    When we learn about other cultures, we learn about our own, and consequently about ourselves.
     
  7. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    The flood was real.. Radio dating of coal samples around the world in various layers of supposed greatly different geological age don't support the claimed long ages and Radio dating of diamond claimed hundred od millions of years old appear just a bit older than the coal.... that leans toward geological layers laid down in a flood and diamonds forming only a bit earlier
     
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  8. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    I love those fossils that could only be made in a catastrophic flood.

    the kamacazi Ichthyosaur with nose buried a million years older than the tail? I don't think so... animals fossilized while eating another animal? Soft tissue animals like Jellyfish fossilized ... those speak of a flood and a catastrophic world wide one

    Trees that cut across fossil layers and petrified trees with no root balls as if uprooted and became upright floaters then fossilized... and all the claimed petrified forests appear from the same time
     
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  9. Kangaroo Feathers

    Kangaroo Feathers Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...

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    A myth, probably based on a real event or events. My personal preferred candidate is the Black Sea Inundation, although there are plenty of other contenders, depending who you ask.
     
  10. Kangaroo Feathers

    Kangaroo Feathers Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...

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    Got a link to any such data?
     
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  11. Windwalker

    Windwalker Veteran Member
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    Who gave you the impression that I think I have the one and only correct interpretation? It certainly wasn't me. I was extremely specific in my other post taking you to task for thinking you do. I have said that are thousands of ways to understand it, not just one, such as you assume about the one's you've adopted. So, put your ego stick down in trying to judge me like this. Read my words, and consider them rather than jumping into this pile of your own imagination.

    So, it has to be literal fruit? It has to be a literal woman? It has to be a literal talking snake? Why?

    Why in what I have presented, which you may or may not have spent the time trying to read and follow, have no validity in your mind? Can you repeat back what you think I've been saying, and then demonstrate where it doesn't have truth to it? Can you do that?

    Yes. It's all layers of the mythology, which you have inserted your meanings into. I don't read it literally, so the symbols contained in it can go all over the place in meaning. I've offered my reading of it, or I should say one of many readings I could offer, and you didn't respond to any of my points, but just repeated your own views.

    Do you think there is more than one valid meaning in them? Yes, or no?

    Be careful. Your Christianity is showing, friend. I do not speak "mumbo-jumbo". That you can't follow, simply means you lack understanding. You're not an idiot, and neither am I.

    Now, that you don't understand what "separateness" means, is to me rather stunning, since all Christians understand that "sin" separates us from God. Our "separateness" is our state of being alone, not-one-with-God, nor with each other. The entire NT is all about reconciliation to God, not being separate any more. I'm surprised I needed to explain that to you, actually.

    On all of it's pages. Can't you see it? And what's furthermore, I am actually speaking from experience, and I understand what that is and what it looks like. It doesn't sound like your church offers much insights for your consideration. But I suppose based on your attitudes, if they did you'd just arrogantly assume it's all "mumbo-jumbo" because you can't follow it. Your way of thinking has to be right, because it's how you think about it. Any contradiction to that, is just nonsense to you, it seems. That's not very healthy.

    I'm not going to respond any further to you, considering the snarky approach you are taking with me. I don't consider that your faith is sincere. If it were, there would be other fruits being shown.
     
    #111 Windwalker, Nov 23, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2017
  12. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    "Disproves" is a strong word! 'Indicates otherwise' might be better.

    Do you ever watch Perry Mason? All the evidence is against his client, yet a fact (a truth) is uncovered that vindicates the client. But it requires digging for it, and keeping an open mind, willing to entertain ideas that oppose what you believe or were taught.
    Is that really truth then? Or just evidence that points in a certain direction? Because facts are permanent.

    Example: radioactive dating, used to determine ages of relics and natural items. Apparently, considered an exact science...but now, much of it is in doubt:

    Do solar neutrinos affect nuclear decay on Earth? - physicsworld.com
     
  13. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    You apparently don't understand why? Taking the entire event as symbolic, negates any need for Jesus' sacrifice! It was "blood for blood", literally!

    Grief
     
  14. Windwalker

    Windwalker Veteran Member
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    No it does not. Why does a real Adam and a real Eve have to exist for the human condition to be what it is? It's the human condition that Jesus addresses. It's the human condition that Adam and Eve symbolize. It doesn't matter if we made them up to talk about our humanness. Adam and Eve may never have existed (what I believe), but our condition does. That's not in dispute.

    It's our humanness that's real. That's where the literalness should be focused - on the reality of our condition. It matters not if these figures of our stories actually never existed. Our condition exists, and you could symbolize that many different ways, including a fabled garden with figures we put into it to think about ourselves through.

    Now do you follow?
     
  15. It Aint Necessarily So

    It Aint Necessarily So Well-Known Member
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  16. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Simply put, it is inherited sin, passed on to everyone descended from Adam and Eve. Which is everyone. Why do you think Romans 5:12 says that?

    Genesis 3:20.

    Have a good day, my cousin.
     
    #116 Hockeycowboy, Nov 23, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2017
  17. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    @It Aint Necessarily So wrote:

    "Irrelevant. If there were enough water on earth to cover all land whatever its topography, the the ark could never have made landfall since dry land would not exist."


    Oh, grief!!!!
    You should read the entire post, before you comment! Lol.
    (You've been guilty of that with others.)

    Proverbs 18:13
     
  18. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    You might like this:
    ‘Noah’s Ark would have floated’

    Smithsonian had an article, too.
    I'll post it.
     
  19. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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  20. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Does God create defective junk on purpose? What is the "human condition"? And why would he create creatures in his own image who are drawn to sin?

    The law of 'cause and effect' kicks in, does it not? What caused the first humans to sin when they were not created to be sinful? Why did Jesus have to be sinless to pay the ransom? What is a ransom? It is the price paid to free a captive. The human race are captives to sin and death....a condition that was caused by Adam and his wife. With no other legacy to pass onto their children and no human who could redeem them, this is what makes Jesus our "redeemer".
    Do you even understand how redemption works? Why didn't God just fix the problem? He is the Creator after all and can do whatever is necessary to remedy "our condition". The way he chose to do so tells us a lot about him and us, if we understand why he has proceeded the way he has. The wisdom he demonstrates in his method will ensure that sin never again mars the life he planned for us in the beginning.
    Humans are made for the earth and the earth for humans. It was never in his first purpose for us to die or to live anywhere but here. If Adam and his wife were not the first humans, then none of that makes sense.

    You miss the most important parts of why we are in "our condition" when death was never supposed to be part of that "condition". Even thousands of years later, death is still as foreign to humankind as it ever was. We fight to live and have an expectation for life to go on...indefinitely, despite the fact that we know death is inevitable, nothing makes it easier to bear when we contemplate it for ourselves or our loved ones.

    Apparently you do not follow what the Bible says. So unless you do, all you have is your own interpretation. Who or what is your authority? Who or what gives you the basis for your beliefs? Who shares your opinion? God will lead but we must follow. He has no need of those who think independently of him. All he has ever asked of man is obedience....not because he is a dictator, but because he is our Father and loves us. He knows what is best for us, even when we think we know better.
     
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