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Featured For Christians. Was the flood real or just a myth?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Deeje, Nov 20, 2017.

  1. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    It appears some of the science was more like putting lipstick on a pig... it's still a pig

    During the infamous Scopes "Monkey Trial", Piltdown Man and Nebraska Man were mentioned in affidavits by "expert witnesses" Fay-Cooper Cole and Horatio Newman (professors at the University of Chicago), and Judge Raulston allowed their reports to be read into the court record on July 20, 1925.

    "Illustrated London News published a two-page black and white drawing of Nebraska Man based on collaboration with Graftorn Elliot Smith of the British Natural History Museum. The drawing depicts Mr. and Mrs. Nebraska Man. They are stooped and naked, human in body and somewhat ape-like in face. . .A couple of months before the Scopes Trial, Henry Osborn wrote that Nebraska Man 'constitutes infinitesimal but irrefutable evidence that the man-ape wandered over from Asia into North America" (The Forum, May 1925)

    "Two years after the 'Monkey Trial' [in Dayton, Tennessee, where Nebraska Man was extolled as the great evidence that man descended from apes],' a team of paleontologists returned to the Nebraska site where Hesperopithecus had been discovered five years earlier, determined to find more of this mysterious creature. To their joy, weathering had exposed parts of a jaw and skeleton on the precise spot. Eagerly, they brushed away dust and sand until the ancient fossil emerged to tell its truth--the infamous molar had once belong[ed] to an extinct pig!"--R Milner, Encyclopedia of Evolution (1990), p. 322
     
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  2. Windwalker

    Windwalker Integralist
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    I speak of Adam and Eve all the time. They speak to the truth of our humanity. It's a device of language to use fictional characters to speak truths. I don't believe they were historical people. Why do you assume Jesus did, just because he spoke of them, as I do? I think the real issue is that YOU do. I think that's a mistake.
     
  3. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    The flood happened just as described in Genesis.
     
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  4. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    And I'll bet you have an answer as to where he found two penguins, two kangaroos, and -- let's not forget -- two baby dinosaurs.
     
  5. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Unlike Genesis 1, there is no reason to doubt the literal 40 days and 40 nights to accomplish the flooding of the earth. Though I don't see how it matters.

    The land mass could have experienced vast changes under the weight of such a volume of water, yet in the Genesis account of creation, the earth was at first covered with water and God made dry land appear. (Genesis 1:2, 9) If there were no high mountains on land and no deep valleys in the oceans then it may not have been too difficult to imagine water inundating the whole earth above the highest peaks.

    Since God made dry land come up out of the water originally, what was to stop him altering earth's landscape again by making the mountains higher and the valleys deeper? The water had to go somewhere. The vast climatic changes that would have occurred by removing the water canopy would have exposed the earth to extremes heat and cold at the equator and at the poles. (Genesis 1:6-7)

    There is a vast amount of water stored and suspended at the polar ice caps, which is why there is concern about climate change. If the polar regions melt, there is fear that the earth will again be flooded. Water was also used from within the earth itself which could well have gone back to where it originated.

    The Gilgamesh story is actually a reflection of the flood story and its details mesh in many areas. So, which came first?

    The Epic of Gilgamesh is an ancient saga, thought to date back to the second millennium B.C.E., and describes a hero’s search for eternal youth. This Babylonian Epic mentions a flood, a ship, and survivors. Gilgamesh himself was described as a lustful, violent demigod, or part god, part man.

    Since Babylon was built post-flood by Noah's great grandson Nimrod, it seems way more likely to me that a kernel of truth came from an actual event and was then embellished by those who retold the story heard from the survivors. The flood occurred almost 2,500 years BCE but Moses did not record Genesis until 1513 BCE.

    "One of the four cities founded by Nimrod that formed “the beginning of his kingdom.” (Gensis 10:10)
    Accad (Akkad) has been identified with the ancient city of Agade. The precise location is uncertain.


    The name Akkad is also applied to the whole northern region of what later was called Babylonia. Akkad appears to have received prominence as the principal or royal city of that region under Sargon I (not the Sargon of Isa 20:1). The southern region of Mesopotamia was known as Sumer. Babylonia grew out of these two areas, and in Babylonian texts her rulers were still called “king of Akkad” down to the time of Babylon’s fall in 539 B.C.E. On the Cyrus Cylinder, Babylon’s conqueror takes over the title “King of Babylon, king of Sumer and Akkad.” (Insight on the Scriptures Volume I)


    From your link....
    "The Gilgamesh story was written across the span of a millennium by no specific author but rather as a culmination of many different people adding their own part to the epic."

    This is what humans do...they embellish and add their own details. Who could make up a story like that if there was no basis in fact? Even fictional stories have a basis in reality.
     
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  6. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Utterly astonishing!

    I'd always understood that at the end of the Flood, Noah sent out a dove ─ but as the video makes clear, it was a flying pig.
     
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  7. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

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    Happy you had fun. :)
     
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  8. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    You might find this study, completed by students of the University of Leicester, more than interesting, I did!

    Could Noah’s Ark Float? In Theory, Yes | Science | Smithsonian
    (Oops! I almost forgot!)

    Plus, the dimensions of the Ark, a 6 to 1 ratio of length to width, are exactly what is needed for a non-powered vessel of that size to maintain stability! Only in the last 2 centuries have ship builders recognized that this ratio is perfect for non-powered barge-like ships to be seaworthy.

    How could Moses have known, in recording the event, that Noah was given such perfect ratios? Fortunate guessing?

    It was through Divine inspiration!
     
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  9. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Actually, I’m surprised you believe Jesus existed! I thought, in another thread, that you denied it.
     
  10. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Really, human living conditions before the Flood, as you just recounted, @Deeje, were what the post diluvian Greek, Roman, Norse, etc., myths about their gods was all about....the gods coming down and sleeping with women, producing offspring, like Hercules! (Although Hercules, according to myth, was a good guy.)

    Because of the fact that these ancient myths actually call these ones “gods” tells us that the humans back then knew that these ones came down from another realm, as the angels, ie., sons of God (Genesis 6:1-4), actually did.

    No wonder
    Jehovah stepped in! We should be thankful!
     
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  11. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    No, it isn’t. Unity of thought is one step that leads to peace between members.

    I’d rather understand the Scriptures, the way the writers intended. It is indeed harmonious, when one is taught what the writers of it, meant.

    Then the first-century Christians were a cult. — 1 Corinthians 1:10 (again); 1 Peter 3:8
    Oh, they had their preferences of likes and dislikes no doubt, and their own opinions regarding secular pursuits, but when it came to spiritual beliefs, they were united! At least, as long as the Apostles were alive....


    That was pretty good company, back then!
     
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  12. It Aint Necessarily So

    It Aint Necessarily So Well-Known Member
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    Imagine how your standard applies to Christianity. It devastates it: It is not provable by any method whatsoever that demonstrates beyond question that what the Bible assumes to have taken place in the dim dark past is actually true.

    They were in days. The scripture is clear about that. Its authors knew nothing of eons. The days of creation are intended as literal days, which is why the writer went out of his way to indicate that each had a sunrise and a sunset: "Evening passed and morning came—that was the first day"

    The rest of us have reason to doubt what man says in the Bible when it conflicts with what reason and evidence say.
     
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  13. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    A real-life Adam and Eve, and the choices they made as recorded in the Bible, is the entire reason Jesus came to Earth.... giving the value of His perfect human life to God, in our behalf, because that is what Adam lost; and, as our progenitor, also lost for us....perfect human life. — Romans 5:12
     
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  14. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Sorry not biting. Been down that road too many times.... YAWN. [​IMG] You can believe whatever you like.

    This is supposed to be a discussion not a debate. I invited Christians to this thread to discuss a topic that is interesting to us. I have no interest in arguing with you. I came here for a break from the arguments.

    Next time I will post in the Christian DIR though I was interested in what people of other faiths might have to say.
    Flood legends are widespread and I thought they may have something of interest to add.
     
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  15. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    If you are going to make ridiculous comments don't be surprised if someone provides facts.

    It has rained cats and dogs just a week ago, i put my foot in a poodle.
     
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  16. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

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    Never heard the poodle before. :) That's rich.
     
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  17. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

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    I have another video that I recommend, it is about the Exodus, very good with lots of goodies for believers:
     
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  18. Windwalker

    Windwalker Integralist
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    No. Unity of thought in the sense you mean it is uniformity of thought. You can't have "unity" unless there is diversity. And the important point is that it does not lead to actual peace between members. It leads to the illusion of peace because of getting rid of diversity. Uniformity is done by force. Unity is done by love, bringing together individuals in harmony with the different notes of their own songs. Marching in lockstep means all individuality is removed. A lack of open warfare is not peace. It's oppression.

    This too is a fallacy. You cannot fully understand what the other intended, no matter how good of an interpreter you imagine yourself to be. Everyone will always, without exception, interpret another's words through the filters of their own mind. And those filters depend on a very complex set of variables, such as one spiritual growth, general maturity, cultural expectations, etc. You reading a passage at age five for instance, will have a very different meaning than it will when you read it 30 years later! The scripture was just there, static and doing nothing, until you as a reader translate it into your life for where you are at at that time, and again for where you are at later on, and again and again. It's always your understanding, not the original author's ideas, whatever those may have actually been for them.


    Not in the sense I stated it, meaning forcing people to all think one way, read one way, speak one way, etc. Those are the cults like which strip individuals of the uniqueness, to bring them under the power of a single leader, or authoritative group, engaging in practices of shunning to force conformity through fear. That was not early Christianity, though it certainly would have arisen in places since wherever there is a group of people, power vacuums begin to exist to be filled by those who seek power over others.

    First of all, "spiritual beliefs", seems a bit of an oxymoron to me! Beliefs about spirituality, are not the same thing as actual spirituality, which is "beyond beliefs". Don't mistake doctrinal statements and theological views as "spirituality". They are not. They are religious beliefs. Someone can in fact have a wide range of beliefs, yet be equally spiritual with another. And that is something these modern cults who claim to be the one true religion have in common. Their "spirituality" is actually just a collection of religious beliefs, and not actual spirituality that leads to Unity, bringing together with the heart that sees past differences of beliefs.

    Read this passage to see if you can see that at play here: 1 Corinthians 8 NIV You will notice how Paul is not forcing people to all think the same, but instead to embrace the differences of beliefs, held in the unity of Love? That's spirituality, not some cult who all think the same religiously together.
     
  19. Windwalker

    Windwalker Integralist
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    Why would they have to be literal humans, and not figurative examples of the human condition for which people seek redemption from the suffering we experience? There's no reason they had to be historical, in order for them to be true symbolically.

    Jesus could speak of them symbolically in the same way I do, and no meaning be lost. Do you not see that the truth of something is greater than the thing in itself, that the object we attach meaning to, is not the meaning itself? We are all Adam and Eve. They are us.
     
  20. Sanzbir

    Sanzbir Well-Known Member

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    Yes. If you had read my post you would know my thoughts on the subject were "I don't trust the specific record in the book, but I don't doubt an actual flood inspired the legends of the flood in the Hebrew and other cultures in the area."

    But you chose not to read my post and chose to reply from a place of ignorance tilting at some fundy-Christian strawman you invented for yourself to fight. Why do you chose not to read someone's post before commenting?? Seriously, I don't understand people like you: why do you just assume people's positions without reading their posts and then issue forth posts making you look like a complete idiot for not taking the 20 seconds necessary to read a post but feeling like you can comment on it anyways??
     
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