For Christians. Was the flood real or just a myth?

[URAVIP2ME]

You think Jesus' Gospel is based on logical reasoning? My, you are a product of modernity, whether you're scientifically ignorant or not. Jesus' teaching was based on, and appeals to Love, not logic and reason!
If you invite someone who is seeking for change in their lives in order to find the good in themselves and the world, that's one thing. Nothing wrong with that at all. But to tell them that the reason they should is because if they don't God will destroy them, that's an entirely other thing. That is ego, masking itself as religious truth in order to hide it's ugly face.
The analogy is simple, it's like paying the mob "protection money" to keep them from trashing your store. "God, please don't destroy me! Here's my worship money. Please, please take it and don't annihilate me!"
Which religionists conveniently extend to anyone who doesn't accept their version of truth. Just call them all wicked and be done with it.
Whatever the arguments theologically, it's still threatening them saying if you don't convert, God will destroy you, either smashing you into oblivion or roasting you in His holy torture chamber of love for eternity. In either case, it really stinks of ego.

'Roasting in His holy torture chamber forever ....' is Not found in any Scripture.
That is a man-made religious-myth teaching outside of Scripture but just being taught as being Scripture.
KJV translated the word Gehenna into English as hellfire.
Gehenna was simply a garbage pit where things were destroyed forever Not burning forever.
The Bible's hell is simply mankind's stone-cold temporary grave for the sleeping dead because I find Jesus teaches ' sleep in death ' at John 11:11-14 as also do the old Hebrew Scriptures teach sleep in death as per Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5.

Just as there was No post-mortem penalty for father Adam, but just going back to non-life at Genesis 3:19. So, there is No post-mortem penalty for anyone else. Just a loosing out on any future life.
Plus, the Bible's hell (grave) is temporary. (If permanent Jesus would still be in hell - Acts 2:27,31-32)
Please notice at Revelation 20:13-14 that the dead are ' delivered up ' out of biblical hell. Then, after being resurrected (delivered up) out of hell, then emptied-out hell is cast vacant into that symbolic ' second death ' for vacated hell. So, the Bible's hell is a temporary sleeping place and Not a burning place.
Even the word ' cemetery ' means: sleeping place, and Not a burning place.

'Protection money....' (so to speak) sound more like a false clergy teaching.
I find in Scripture the only time Jesus 'passed the plate', so to speak, was when Jesus passed the plate around to feed the people with fish and bread. (sounds more like fast-food service, then the church baskets or envelopes )
Jesus instructed to teach for free at Matthew 10:8 B. In other words, No charge.

Even mankind finds some crimes just so horrific that they take that person out of society for life.
They are viewed as beyond reform. The people of Noah's day and Sodom and Gomorrah were beyond hope.
God forewarns people the need to repent (Not be wicked) because God will only bring to ruin those ruing Earth as per Revelation 11:18 B. So, if society can deem a person as beyond hope, then God, who can read hearts and minds, will Not destroy anyone who is Not deserving. Jesus is Judge and Not imperfect man as per Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-16; Matthew 25:31-33,37.
We can all choose to be a humble figurative ' sheep ' or a haughty figurative ' goat '. The choice is ours to make.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Yes. So would you, probably.
"You either have a God who sends child rapists to rape children or you have a God who simply watches it and says, 'When you're done, I'm going to punish you' .. If I were in a situation where I could stop a person from raping a child, I would. That's the difference between me and your God." - Tracie Harris

Yes, I find any normal person would stop crime and violence if they could.
If God had immediately destroyed Adam and Eve we simply would have never been born.
We are innocent of what Adam and Eve did, and that is why we have the hope of Genesis 3:15.
Remember: By breaking God's Law then Adam deliberately took the Law out of God's hands, so to speak, and placed the Law into man's hands. Adam used his free-will choices to break the Law, thus Adam set up People Rule and superior to God Rule. Only with the passing of time ( and giving us the opportunity to be born ) would it prove who governs best. Stepping in right away some would say 'God is just a Bully' if Adam and Eve died before they had offspring. Man's Rule has proven that man can't stop child rapists, etc. Man's Rule even at times lets such criminals go free. So, I wonder who can say Man's Rule, People Rule, is a superior way of governing over what Jesus taught at John 13:34-35 to have the same self-sacrificing love for others as Jesus has.

 

[Windwalker]

'Roasting in His holy torture chamber forever ....' is Not found in any Scripture.
That is a man-made religious-myth teaching outside of Scripture but just being taught as being Scripture.
KJV translated the word Gehenna into English as hellfire.

Blah, blah, blah. I've made a point to specifically show that both doctrines of God roasting you in hell, according to many Christian beliefs, or God annihilating you according to others, is equally not Love. Yet, you choose to ignore that and harp on and on about how the JW's view on hell is the right one. Who cares? They are both equally deplorable.

 

[Apologes]

I take it to be a text of a lot of theological but little historical value.

 

[metis]

Think about the flood narrative...are you doing what the people of Noah's day did....for all the same reasons? Are you confidently ignoring God's messengers again because everyone else is doing it, and the ones you trust are saying it never happened?

So, having a different interpretation of the same narrative than you is supposedly "ignoring God's messengers"? That's quite a statement.

There is evidence for the flood that is largely overlooked by science.

Such as...?

The Akkadian epic of Gilgamesh was written before Genesis, but the event occurred well before the city of Babylon was even built.

It's not about the city of Babylon but about the name for the region, which was called by different names over its very long history.

Why have they dug up palm trees under the icy layers of Siberia?

There have been numerous warming spells historically.

If Noah was not a real person, then was Abraham, whom Paul also mentions in the next verses? (Hebrews 11:8-10)

Which only would bother a literalist, which is an absurdity that essentially makes an idol out of the Bible, namely elevating a material object to a divine level. Even Aquinas pooh-poohed that idea by saying that if one took that literalistic approach then Jesus could not be declared "the Messiah" because he didn't fulfill all the prophecies as found in the Tanakh.

Where do we draw the line in the long list of Bible characters and say that one was real but others were not?

Any serious historian well knows that when we read history we are reading people's take on what supposedly happened. There are no guarantees that any one account is going to be entirely accurate. Nor should we assume that later writers of scripture knew whether the narrative they repeat was either a real historical even or an allegory. People need to remember that when we're reading scriptures that we are reading subjective "history", not objective history.

How I avoid this is to read the narratives and pretty much avoid the "did this really happen?" approach by focusing in on the teachings of values and morals within the narratives. Even that approach cannot guarantee accuracy, but at least it's a reasonable starting point.

 

[metis]

Since the Bible is Not in written in alphabetical ABC order then researching needs to be done by subject arrangement or topic arrangement by taking one topic or subject at a time and view if there is internal harmony among the Bible writers, thus in that way see a more complete or comprehensive understanding of what the writers are writing.

Well, since I taught both Christian theology and also a comparative religions course for many years, ...

As in Jesus' day (Matthew 15:9) religious leaders were teaching customs or traditions which were ' outside ' of Scripture, but teaching them as being Scripture.

Not quite. The "Oral Law" of the Pharisees was not considered part of the canon, nor was it ever viewed as being on the same level as scripture itself. As with all religious institutions, interpretations and applications can vary, and each branch in each religion has done just that, which is why there are literally hundreds of different Christian denominations, for example, with each one pretty much claiming that they are more right than the others.

That to me has nothing to do with interpretation of Scripture but interpretation of church customs, or church traditions which are Not found based on Scripture.

See the above as the same "rule" applies with Christ denominations. No church today is a replica of the original, nor should it be because times and conditions change.

I find serious students are like the people of Acts of the Apostles 17:11 who searched or researched the Scriptures daily to see if what they were hearing or what they were learning was really found in Scripture.

A great many do just that, including yours truly.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

focusing in on the teachings of values and morals within the narratives.

Just curious, what morals and values do you glean from the Flood story, if it’s only allegorical?

 

[Deeje]

So, having a different interpretation of the same narrative than you is supposedly "ignoring God's messengers"? That's quite a statement.

Learn the lesson from the story. The messenger was ignored and all humans outside of God's provision for salvation, perished.

Such as...?

New Evidence Suggests Biblical Great Flood Happened
Evidence found of Noah's ark flood victims

There are many theories but as we know theories are not easy to prove. Things can have more than one explanation where men are concerned, but with God, I like to assume that he doesn't tell lies.

It's not about the city of Babylon but about the name for the region, which was called by different names over its very long history.

Since Babylon was built by Nimrod, it was built by those related to the flood survivors. At the tower of Babel, God confused the language of the tower builders and scattered the different language groups all over the world, explaining why those flood stories permeate almost every culture. What other explanation is feasible if the Bible's narrative is myth?

Which only would bother a literalist, which is an absurdity that essentially makes an idol out of the Bible, namely elevating a material object to a divine level. Even Aquinas pooh-poohed that idea by saying that if one took that literalistic approach then Jesus could not be declared "the Messiah" because he didn't fulfill all the prophecies as found in the Tanakh.

The Bible is not to be idolize any more than any other material object. But at the same time, it makes sense for the Creator to leave instructions and living examples so that his human family could benefit from them. He intended for his human children to learn as they lived and experienced the wonders of creation for themselves, endowed with his creativity and an inbuilt thirst for knowledge. Who cares what men said about him? I am more interested in what God tells us about himself.

Jews rejecting Jesus because he failed to fulfill messianic prophesies is a joke. I can give you a very long list of the prophesies he fulfilled. What he failed to do was give the religious leaders of the day the recognition and praise that they wanted....these are the people who hated him enough to want him dead. Those are the same kind of leaders who killed the prophets that God sent to correct them all through their history. (Matthew 23:37-39) God had had enough of their nonsense so, once he had fulfilled his obligation to Abraham to produce the promised seed in his family line, he abandoned them as his nation and chose a new one. (Acts 15:14; Galatians 6:16)

Any serious historian well knows that when we read history we are reading people's take on what supposedly happened. There are no guarantees that any one account is going to be entirely accurate. Nor should we assume that later writers of scripture knew whether the narrative they repeat was either a real historical even or an allegory. People need to remember that when we're reading scriptures that we are reading subjective "history", not objective history.

You don't have to be a mental giant to understand that history can be very selective in its reporting and extremely creative in its presentation of events. Most people I am sure would be appalled at the way in which the history of their own nation is reported....but the Bible is alone in claiming to be inspired by the most powerful entity in existence...one for whom it is impossible to lie. I'll take his word over man's any day.

How I avoid this is to read the narratives and pretty much avoid the "did this really happen?" approach by focusing in on the teachings of values and morals within the narratives. Even that approach cannot guarantee accuracy, but at least it's a reasonable starting point.

There is no doubt that credibility is what determines what we will accept as fact, and what we won't. If you do not see the Bible as inspired of God, but only as a work of men, then it will be easily taken apart because you are not exercising faith in what it says or attributing its teachings to its author. Faith is a prerequisite when it comes to knowing the Creator. To tell unbelievers that you have a personal relationship with God is pure fiction to them because they have never experienced it. Believe me, when that relationship is based on faith, and one's life is lived in accord with his direction, then he will come into your life in ways you can never imagine. This is my personal experience....the reason why I am not indecisive.

 

[Windwalker]

Just curious, what morals and values do you glean from the Flood story, if it’s only allegorical?

I'll make a stab at that, if you don't mind. First off, when you ask this very question, what meaning do you glean if it's only allegorical, is to point to the fact that there is an allegory in it! You're asking, what is the meaning we can glean from a story. That is precisely what allegories do! Do you see that? So even if the story is factual history, there is an allegorical meaning. That is exactly what you are seeing.

Now the question, what is the meaning? That depends on the person. It also depends in what context the question is being asked. What age are you asking that at? What circumstances in your life are you asking that from within? Depending on all of those, the meaning will be different. And that is the point of all of it.

 

[Katzpur]

It is probably a historic memory of a lesser scale, but very damaging, flood in that area.

Agreed.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Blah, blah, blah. I've made a point to specifically show that both doctrines of God roasting you in hell, according to many Christian beliefs, or God annihilating you according to others, is equally not Love. Yet, you choose to ignore that and harp on and on about how the JW's view on hell is the right one. Who cares? They are both equally deplorable.

I find even humans find some crimes so horrific that the death penalty is enforced.
To me what is deplorable is that many are let go to commit the same crime over and over.
So, I wonder why such persons can have more and more victims without justice for the innocent or righteous ones.
God would Not be a God of Justice if He allowed such criminals to keep on committing such crimes forever and ever.
That is why there is a day of judgment. Adverse judgement for the wicked, and favorable judgement for the upright.
Thus, righteous and upright persons will Not have to live forever with the wicked.
If God had Not involved himself in Noah's day those wicked violent people would have even killed off ALL righteous persons on Earth. Earth was Not made for wicked people to inhabit the Earth forever as per Proverbs 2:21-22.
Jesus promised Earth to humble meek people to inherit the Earth.

 

[osgart]

There's a whole church down the street from me that takes The bible as literal events in history. They say only true Christians take the Bible literally. The church is packed every Sunday. To them all non Christians are bound for eternal hell without saving faith in the literal interpretation of the Bible.

Don't tell me humans ain't crazy. The whole world demands conformity, christians, and elsewise.

 

[Windwalker]

I find even humans find some crimes so horrific that the death penalty is enforced.

Yes, of course. Humans do find that acceptable. Why do you assume God is measured by human standards? As I've said, humans project God in their own, bloodthirsty image. You have made my point.

To me what is deplorable is that many are let go to commit the same crime over and over.

Well yes, you speaking as a human, are judging through weak and undeveloped human standards. Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. Jesus refuted that standard, if you haven't read that yet in the Bible.

When you stop projecting onto God your human standards of ego and culture, then you have something to say about the standards of God.

 

[metis]

Just curious, what morals and values do you glean from the Flood story, if it’s only allegorical?

Obedience to God and the consequences of sin for starters. Not being swayed by "public opinion" may well be another. "Salvation" through belief in God and behaving morally in terms of what He taught, whether that be "saved" physically or spiritually, is important. The issue of water, not only being a physical "cleansing" agent but a spiritual one as well, that is used extensively in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, may be another.

It's hard to say what other messages may have been attempted to be transmitted by the author that maybe I'm unaware of, so I'm definitely not the "last word" on this.

How about you?

 

[Windwalker]

I find even humans find some crimes so horrific that the death penalty is enforced.

What does the death penalty have to do with stopping a criminal? It certainly doesn't stop the crime from happening. Are you saying because you are offended by the crime, that you need to see somebody killed? Well, that's about you then, not the criminal. Jesus taught directly against wanting vengeance, you should be aware. And wanting the death penalty, is wanting vengeance. You want them to pay for it with their lives.

To me what is deplorable is that many are let go to commit the same crime over and over.

That's a problem with our criminal justice system. Norway, for instance doesn't have that problem. When they imprison someone, they actually make an effort to actually reform them. Our prisons on the other hand, are just pens for people. Of course if you don't do anything to address the actual causes of the behaviors, the behaviors will likely happen again.

So if you think it's deplorable, then you should get involved in trying to get your representatives to address the state of our prison systems! Don't expect God to do it for you. Go pray about it, but then do something tangible and real.

God would Not be a God of Justice if He allowed such criminals to keep on committing such crimes forever and ever.

You talk about innocent victims? If God is this Arm of Justice you imagine, then why doesn't He take care of the problem right now? He's certainly capable, in how you imagine God to be. For me, if I believed God is finally going to act to destroy the baddies, I'd be pretty pissed at him for letting it happen in the first place. This belief is a good way to set yourself up to lose your faith, when you or someone you love is harmed, BTW.

That is why there is a day of judgment. Adverse judgement for the wicked, and favorable judgement for the upright.

And all the while God had the ability to spare us from atrocities, and did not. "Gee, thanks for letting me into heaven, after you let me be tortured and murdered! What the hell was that about, God?"

Thus, righteous and upright persons will Not have to live forever with the wicked.

That's why we have jails, don't you know? We don't have to live with them now, once we can lock them up. It would be nice if we could do something to help them, so they too can become righteous and upright persons. That's where your focus should be, helping them not be criminals in the here and now, rather than all this feeling of powerlessness where you imagine one day God will "get 'em" for you. That's not a good way to live your faith, is it?

If God had Not involved himself in Noah's day those wicked violent people would have even killed off ALL righteous persons on Earth. Earth was Not made for wicked people to inhabit the Earth forever as per Proverbs 2:21-22.
Jesus promised Earth to humble meek people to inherit the Earth.

Of course, the humble inherit the Earth, right now, in every moment. The 'wicked' don't get to live with that Freedom because of the darkness of their minds in their current states. In fact, I'd say the same thing holds true for most people. Arrogant religious people don't see the Kingdom of God either, even though it's right here, right now.

 

[metis]

New Evidence Suggests Biblical Great Flood Happened
Evidence found of Noah's ark flood victims

Did you actually read those articles? Both talked about localized flooding, not any worldwide flood. Geologists tell us that the highest level reached when both polar icecaps melted was only about 300 feet above the current levels.

Since Babylon was built by Nimrod,

Again, "Babylon" is the name of a region, not just a city, in what is now Iraq that changed names many times, and it certainly was not built by one man.

What other explanation is feasible if the Bible's narrative is myth?

Do you know what "myth" actually means theologically? It does not mean nor imply falsehood. The importance of the Flood myth is not whether such a flood ever happened but what morals and values are taught within the myth itself. With all the symbolism used within Jewish literature, you simply fail to recognize just how extensively it is used in Jewish writings.

Jews rejecting Jesus because he failed to fulfill messianic prophesies is a joke.

And I know you think you are so much theologically smarter than Aquinas, but the reality is that he was correct, and some Christian theologians will tell you the same thing since not all of the messianic predictions were fulfilled, with some believing that they may become fulfilled with Jesus' 2nd coming. I can give you a listing of those predictions out of the Tanakh if you'd like, but I'm reluctant to do so since it likely would take us off in a different direction.

You don't have to be a mental giant to understand that history can be very selective in its reporting and extremely creative in its presentation of events.

And the same is true with scriptures as well since there are myriads of what theologians refer to as "variations", meaning narratives that cover the same event but which don't match. An easy example is how many angels were at Jesus' tomb, what did he/they say, and where were he/they located? No two gospels match.

If you do not see the Bible as inspired of God, but only as a work of men,

Theologians differ on this issue since "divine inspiration" is more of a question than an answer. For example, can't God spell as there are over 1000 spelling errors found in the oldest versions of John's gospel (that info, btw, comes from the excellent Anglican theologian Sir William Barclay)?

Faith is a prerequisite when it comes to knowing the Creator. To tell unbelievers that you have a personal relationship with God is pure fiction to them because they have never experienced it. Believe me, when that relationship is based on faith, and one's life is lived in accord with his direction, then he will come into your life in ways you can never imagine.

You are assuming that I have no faith, but it's just not in some of the things you believe. I have said on many occasions here that I do believe in Something that goes beyond just the physical but I just don't feel qualified to know exactly what That is.

 

[RabbiO]

Jews rejecting Jesus because he failed to fulfill messianic prophesies is a joke.

So are ignorant statements such as yours.

 

[Deeje]

So are ignorant statements such as yours.

I understand that you naturally support the Jewish version of events RabbiO, or else you would not be Jewish.....right? If you are a Rabbi, then I understand your POV completely, but I disagree.

Given their Biblical history however, what makes you think that the Jewish version is correct? What did the Jewish leaders always seem to do when God's prophets were sent to them? (Jeremiah 7:13; 29:19; Nehemiah 9:26; )

Why did God want to "destroy" his wayward people on occasion? (read Jeremiah 5. Chapter 25 reveals why he sent Israel into exile for 70 years. Did they remain faithful even after that?) Not an impressive track record is it?

Does Israel have God's blessing today as a spiritual nation? I can see that they are as troubled as any other nation, politically and they are still divided into sects. I believe that Jesus came to correct Israel but rather than listen to him, they did what they had done all through their history....they silenced him rather than to act on his admonition. I don't believe that Jesus came to start a new religion, but the religion named after him was a continuation of the Jewish faith, with adjustments pertaining to the foretold "new covenant" (Jeremiah 31:31-33) requiring new laws. As it was promised to Abraham, "all nations" were to benefit from the covenant God made with him. Gentiles are now part of that spiritual nation which was founded on the Jewish disciples of Jesus Christ.

The messianic prophesies were fulfilled in details that Jesus could not control. Would you like a list?

As this is not a debate forum, perhaps you would like to start a thread and we can discuss them?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Blah, blah, blah. I've made a point to specifically show that both doctrines of God roasting you in hell, according to many Christian beliefs, or God annihilating you according to others, is equally not Love. Yet, you choose to ignore that and harp on and on about how the JW's view on hell is the right one. Who cares? They are both equally deplorable.

It’s not about ‘not loving’ the wicked. It’s about loving the innocent. If the wicked want to harm others, they’re gone. But, at least, the wicked are given a chance to change their conduct, after their resurrection. — Acts of the Apostles 24:15.

You don’t appreciate God allowing that?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Here’s an interesting legend, from Wikipedia
(The Igorot are a mountain dwelling people, not susceptible to floods):

Philippines

• Igorot:

Once upon a time, when the world was flat and there were no mountains, there lived two brothers, sons of Lumawig, the Great Spirit. The brothers were fond of hunting, and since no mountains had formed there was no good place to catch wild pig and deer, and the older brother said: "Let us cause water to flow over all the world and cover it, and then mountains will rise up."[6]
compare Psalms 104

Some remnants of truth from the ancient past, maybe?



“What evidence proves that there truly was a global deluge?

Other possible evidence of a drastic change: Remains of mammoths and rhinoceroses have been found in different parts of the earth. Some of these were found in Siberian cliffs; others were preserved in Siberian and Alaskan ice. (PICTURE, Vol. 1, p. 328) In fact, some were found with food undigested in their stomachs or still unchewed in their teeth, indicating that they died suddenly. It is estimated, from the trade in ivory tusks, that bones of tens of thousands of such mammoths have been found. The fossil remains of many other animals, such as lions, tigers, bears, and elk, have been found in common strata, which may indicate that all of these were destroyed simultaneously. Some have pointed to such finds as definite physical proof of a rapid change in climate and sudden destruction caused by a universal flood. Others, however, favor explanations for the death of these animals that do not involve an earth-wide catastrophe. Proof that the Flood occurred is not dependent on such fossils and frozen animal remains.

Flood Legends. Such a cataclysm as the Deluge, which washed the whole world of that time out of existence, would never be forgotten by the survivors. They would talk about it to their children and their children’s children. For 500 years after the Deluge, Shem lived on to relate the event to many generations. He died only ten years before the birth of Jacob. Moses preserved the true account in Genesis. Sometime after the Flood, when God-defying people built the Tower of Babel, Jehovah confused their language and scattered them “over all the surface of the earth.” (Ge 11:9) It was only natural that these people took with them stories of the Flood and passed them on from father to son. The fact that there are not merely a few but perhaps hundreds of different stories about that great Deluge, and that such stories are found among the traditions of many primitive races the world over, is a strong proof that all these people had a common origin and that their early forefathers shared that Flood experience in common.—CHART, Vol. 1, p. 328.

These folklore accounts of the Deluge agree with some major features of the Biblical account: (1) a place of refuge for a few survivors, (2) an otherwise global destruction of life by water, and (3) a seed of mankind preserved. The Egyptians, the Greeks, the Chinese, the Druids of Britain, the Polynesians, the Eskimos and Greenlanders, the Africans, the Hindus, and the American Indians—all of these have their Flood stories. The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (Vol. 2, p. 319) states: “Flood stories have been discovered among nearly all nations and tribes. Though most common on the Asian mainland and the islands immediately south of it and on the North American continent, they have been found on all the continents. Totals of the number of stories known run as high as about 270 . . . The universality of the flood accounts is usually taken as evidence for the universal destruction of humanity by a flood and the spread of the human race from one locale and even from one family. Though the traditions may not all refer to the same flood, apparently the vast majority do. The assertion that many of these flood stories came from contacts with missionaries will not stand up because most of them were gathered by anthropologists not interested in vindicating the Bible, and they are filled with fanciful and pagan elements evidently the result of transmission for extended periods of time in a pagan society. Moreover, some of the ancient accounts were written by people very much in opposition to the Hebrew-Christian tradition.”—Edited by G. Bromiley, 1982.

In times past, certain primitive people (in Australia, Egypt, Fiji, Society Islands, Peru, Mexico, and other places) preserved a possible remnant of these traditions about the Flood by observing in November a ‘Feast of Ancestors’ or a ‘Festival of the Dead.’ Such customs reflected a memory of the destruction caused by the Deluge. According to the book Life and Work at the Great Pyramid, the festival in Mexico was held on the 17th of November because they “had a tradition that at that time the world had been previously destroyed; and they dreaded lest a similar catastrophe would, at the end of a cycle, annihilate the human race.” (By Professor C. Piazzi Smyth, Edinburgh, 1867, Vol. II, pp. 390, 391) Notes the book The Worship of the Dead: “This festival [of the dead] is . . . held by all on or about the very day on which, according to the Mosaic account, the Deluge took place, viz., the seventeenth day of the second month—the month nearly corresponding with our November.” (By J. Garnier, London, 1904, p. 4) Interestingly, the Bible reports that the Flood began “in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month.” (Ge 7:11) That “second month” corresponds to the latter part of October and the first part of November on our calendar.”

— Excerpt from Deluge — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY