Evolution is a fact?!

[Subduction Zone]

A couple of things here. As far as the sad occurrence with those born with defects such as leukemia, it happens. Yes, God allows these sad things to happen. And it is sad, whether a person believes in God or not. God did not cause these sad things to happen, but He permits it. What God did cause is death for humans and the currently onward progression towards death.
Hawkings is surmising what happened.

It is rather sad how some believers allow their God to play "Heads I win, tails you lose".

 

[YoursTrue]

Oh, and let me try a wild guess here: the people who "God has opened the bible to" are exactly the same people who agree with your interpretation of it...?

No true Scotsman.

I see things as I see them. Sometimes a person, including myself, needs to be steered in a way that sets well with them, or with which they agree with. Some people, like me, need glasses to see things more clearly.

 

[F1fan]

A couple of things here. As far as the sad occurrence with those born with defects such as leukemia, it happens. Yes, God allows these sad things to happen. And it is sad, whether a person believes in God or not. God did not cause these sad things to happen, but He permits it.

So God has the power to make it not happen, but does nothing to prevent it. Would you allow children to get deadly and painful genetic diseases if you could stop it?

What God did cause is death for humans and the currently onward progression towards death.

Death happens to every organism, including humans. It's almost as if humans aren't special.

 

[YoursTrue]

So God has the power to make it not happen, but does nothing to prevent it. Would you allow children to get deadly and painful genetic diseases if you could stop it?



Death happens to every organism, including humans. It's almost as if humans aren't special.

God can and will provide a disease-free earth in the future. Call me simple, but because it makes sense to me (now), I believe the Bible's promises of a life without sickness and death.
I understand your point, although somehow the cat that visits me must think he's special, also he doesn't think like I do. He's a cat. I'm a little bit afraid of him because I don't know him well, and although I like him, he can scratch if I'm not careful. But I don't think like he does, and he doesn't think, I'm sure although I have not 'heard' from him personally (thank goodness) about this.
Only humans have the capability or capacity to write history of their encounters with divine powers, whether they be from the real God or not. (Yes, I believe there is a true God, and false gods.) Squirrels, ants, even badgers do not have the capacity to wonder. I doubt experiments trying to find out if they do have had too much mileage. Humans are the only 'life forms' that relate their thoughts and experiences in writing, therefore they communicate what they believe their history is and what the future shall bring. Whether they're right or wrong is another story, but they have these historical data. They are the only 'life forms' that have done this in writing. Now I have heard arguments that cows, horses, bugs (who knows?) may have thought about these things, even maybe communicated, but guess what? I don't believe they wonder. (That's right -- I don't believe they wonder about life and death, why they face death, or are made to wonder.) Yet I am quite certain from experience with people that they can think animals wonder about these things. (Again -- I don't imagine, believe, or think that dogs, lions, elephants, etc., wonder about life and how they came about. ) Only humans have that capacity.

 

[ratiocinator]

Oh, and let me try a wild guess here: the people who "God has opened the bible to" are exactly the same people who agree with your interpretation of it...?

I see things as I see them. Sometimes a person, including myself, needs to be steered in a way that sets well with them, or with which they agree with. Some people, like me, need glasses to see things more clearly.

Is that supposed to be a 'yes' answer to my question? You think that you're right about your interpretation and everybody who disagrees is wrong because god hasn't "opened the bible" to them?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Is that supposed to be a 'yes' answer to my question? You think that you're right about your interpretation and everybody who disagrees is wrong because god hasn't "opened the bible" to them?

And never an explanation of why his version of God is different from the version that everyone else that had the Bible opened for them has.

Why, it is almost as if they are all making it up

 

[F1fan]

God can and will provide a disease-free earth in the future. Call me simple, but because it makes sense to me (now), I believe the Bible's promises of a life without sickness and death.

How do you know God will provide a disease-free world? If God wanted that it would have created that. Instead, according to certain Christians, God created a world destined to be corrupted and we now see children born with deadly diseases that can't be cured and it just watches, and does nothing. So what is your idea of God waiting for?

I suggest this is exactly what your idea of God wanted. If it wanted something else, why didn't it create THAT?

I understand your point, although somehow the cat that visits me must think he's special, also he doesn't think like I do. He's a cat. I'm a little bit afraid of him because I don't know him well, and although I like him, he can scratch if I'm not careful. But I don't think like he does, and he doesn't think, I'm sure although I have not 'heard' from him personally (thank goodness) about this.
Only humans have the capability or capacity to write history of their encounters with divine powers, whether they be from the real God or not. (Yes, I believe there is a true God, and false gods.) Squirrels, ants, even badgers do not have the capacity to wonder. I doubt experiments trying to find out if they do have had too much mileage. Humans are the only 'life forms' that relate their thoughts and experiences in writing, therefore they communicate what they believe their history is and what the future shall bring. Whether they're right or wrong is another story, but they have these historical data. They are the only 'life forms' that have done this in writing. Now I have heard arguments that cows, horses, bugs (who knows?) may have thought about these things, even maybe communicated, but guess what? I don't believe they wonder. (That's right -- I don't believe they wonder about life and death, why they face death, or are made to wonder.) Yet I am quite certain from experience with people that they can think animals wonder about these things. (Again -- I don't imagine, believe, or think that dogs, lions, elephants, etc., wonder about life and how they came about. ) Only humans have that capacity.

I'm not sure what your point is here. Humans evolved a brain that is capable of abstract thought, and also a complex language ability. How other animals and insects evolved is irrelevant.

 

[YoursTrue]

How do you know God will provide a disease-free world? If God wanted that it would have created that. Instead, according to certain Christians, God created a world destined to be corrupted and we now see children born with deadly diseases that can't be cured and it just watches, and does nothing. So what is your idea of God waiting for?

I suggest this is exactly what your idea of God wanted. If it wanted something else, why didn't it create THAT?



I'm not sure what your point is here. Humans evolved a brain that is capable of abstract thought, and also a complex language ability. How other animals and insects evolved is irrelevant.

The Bible says that there will be no more sickness or death in the future.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The Bible says that there will be no more sickness or death in the future.

Okay. And why trust the Bible?

 

[F1fan]

The Bible says that there will be no more sickness or death in the future.

Does it explain why it is good for there to be sickness and death now? If it is an eventuality why wait? What is the purpose of sickness, especially children, and their young death?

Take all the time you need. Well, before you get sick and die.

 

[YoursTrue]

Does it explain why it is good for there to be sickness and death now? If it is an eventuality why wait? What is the purpose of sickness, especially children, and their young death?

Take all the time you need. Well, before you get sick and die.

The Bible explains that we (mankind) inherit sin. There is a reason and purpose for God to allow this. But it will not happen this way forever, and I am sure that mankind will not exterminate itself or be eradicated by outside forces. I'm sure for two reasons. First is, the Bible says that the earth will become a beautiful place for all mankind someday, and God also promises that He will remove all causes of unhappiness.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The Bible explains that we (mankind) inherit sin. There is a reason and purpose for God to allow this. But it will not happen this way forever, and I am sure that mankind will not exterminate itself or be eradicated by outside forces. I'm sure for two reasons. First is, the Bible says that the earth will become a beautiful place for all mankind someday, and God also promises that He will remove all causes of unhappiness.

The Bible also says that we do not inherit sin:

Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 24:16 - English Standard Version

Bible Gateway passage: Ezekiel 18:19-20 - English Standard Version

But then of course the Bible constantly contradicts itself:

Bible Gateway passage: Numbers 14:18 - English Standard Version

Bible Gateway passage: Exodus 20:5 - English Standard Version

What to do? What to do?

 

[Valjean]

The Bible explains that we (mankind) inherit sin. There is a reason and purpose for God to allow this. But it will not happen this way forever, and I am sure that mankind will not exterminate itself or be eradicated by outside forces. I'm sure for two reasons. First is, the Bible says that the earth will become a beautiful place for all mankind someday, and God also promises that He will remove all causes of unhappiness.

But, as Subduction Zone queried above: Why believe the Bible?

I daresay, if you'd been raised in Riyadh or Bangalore, you'd be putting your faith in the Quran or Gita.

Your blind acceptance of the contemporary version of the bible -- and a specific interpretation thereof -- was not arrived at by critical analysis of reliable data. It's an emotion backed, magical, fantasy world that you're deeply embedded in.

 

[YoursTrue]

But, as Subduction Zone queried above: Why believe the Bible?

I daresay, if you'd been raised in Riyadh or Bangalore, you'd be putting your faith in the Quran or Gita.

Your blind acceptance of the contemporary version of the bible -- and a specific interpretation thereof -- was not arrived at by critical analysis of reliable data. It's an emotion backed, magical, fantasy world that you're deeply embedded in.

I believe the Bible because it makes sense to me. Before you ask, I'll tell you that I don't understand everything written, but that's why there are teachers and comments as well as archaeologists. If I were raised with the idea of another religion or God, I guess it would be like the surrounding nations to Israel when they were trekking in the wilderness. They had their beliefs, the Hebrews had their beliefs and God and the story goes on. So the best news that makes sense to me is that this life is not all there is, there's a better world coming. And...that...in the beginning, God created the heavens and earth. And...that there are new heavens and a new earth coming in which righteousness is to dwell.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I believe the Bible because it makes sense to me. Before you ask, I'll tell you that I don't understand everything written, but that's why there are teachers and comments as well as archaeologists. If I were raised with the idea of another religion or God, I guess it would be like the surrounding nations to Israel when they were trekking in the wilderness. They had their beliefs, the Hebrews had their beliefs and God and the story goes on. So the best news that makes sense to me is that this life is not all there is, there's a better world coming. And...that...in the beginning, God created the heavens and earth. And...that there are new heavens and a new earth coming in which righteousness is to dwell.

It is very easy to fool yourself. It is wiser to try to figure out how you can test your beliefs to see if they are true. In such tests one needs to avoid confirmation bias. The best tests are ones that have clearly laid out fails for one's beleifs.

 

[Valjean]

I believe the Bible because it makes sense to me. Before you ask, I'll tell you that I don't understand everything written, but that's why there are teachers and comments as well as archaeologists. If I were raised with the idea of another religion or God, I guess it would be like the surrounding nations to Israel when they were trekking in the wilderness. They had their beliefs, the Hebrews had their beliefs and God and the story goes on. So the best news that makes sense to me is that this life is not all there is, there's a better world coming. And...that...in the beginning, God created the heavens and earth. And...that there are new heavens and a new earth coming in which righteousness is to dwell.

Define "makes sense."
To me it means based on direct observation, testable facts, critical analysis, or logic.
I suspect you're giving more weight to familiarity, emotional comfort and convention. You're not actively trying to find faults.

 

[F1fan]

The Bible explains that we (mankind) inherit sin. There is a reason and purpose for God to allow this.

I see. And what is the reason and purpose? These must be very good to justify the suffering and killing of children.

Above you said the Bible makes sense to you. So is it fair to say it makes sense to make children suffer and then kill them?

But it will not happen this way forever, and I am sure that mankind will not exterminate itself or be eradicated by outside forces. I'm sure for two reasons. First is, the Bible says that the earth will become a beautiful place for all mankind someday, and God also promises that He will remove all causes of unhappiness.

Should we trust a God that kills children after months and years of serious pain?

I'll tell you what, you explain to us what good reason a God has to put off this perfect world and why in the meantime it's moral and loving to let children die from genetic diseases.

 

[YoursTrue]

I see. And what is the reason and purpose? These must be very good to justify the suffering and killing of children.

Above you said the Bible makes sense to you. So is it fair to say it makes sense to make children suffer and then kill them?


Should we trust a God that kills children after months and years of serious pain?

I'll tell you what, you explain to us what good reason a God has to put off this perfect world and why in the meantime it's moral and loving to let children die from genetic diseases.

It depends who you are as far as trust goes. You can blame it on evolution, I guess. It's sad, just like genocide is sad, but let me put it this way: if a parent had an inheritable disease, knowing there is a possibility that he can give birth to a sick child, who's to blame for that child's tragic life?

 

[YoursTrue]

I see. And what is the reason and purpose? These must be very good to justify the suffering and killing of children.

Above you said the Bible makes sense to you. So is it fair to say it makes sense to make children suffer and then kill them?


Should we trust a God that kills children after months and years of serious pain?

I'll tell you what, you explain to us what good reason a God has to put off this perfect world and why in the meantime it's moral and loving to let children die from genetic diseases.

People give birth chance-wise to sick children, they also kill children in war, or have abortions. Since people are supposedly part of the evolutionary process without intervention from God, who would you blame if you don't believe in God? People, or evolution? I know it's a hard question.

 

[YoursTrue]

Define "makes sense."
To me it means based on direct observation, testable facts, critical analysis, or logic.
I suspect you're giving more weight to familiarity, emotional comfort and convention. You're not actively trying to find faults.

It doesn't matter really. Because anything I say will be countered by those who don't believe in God or do not understand. And I understand that because I used to be the same way. And so I let God do His work.