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Featured Do you believe God’s word or man’s?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Ted Evans, Aug 9, 2017.

  1. Ted Evans

    Ted Evans Active Member
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    #48

    #98

    I do not understand how your response answered the question, “what is their meaning”? It seems to me to be your opinion relative to Genesis 1. Would you say other linguistic and Bible scholars would disagree with you?

    Using this verse as an example,

    “The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit with seed in them, after their kind; and God saw that it was good.” (Genesis 1:12, NASB95)

    Can you explain what, “earth, vegetation, plants, seed, trees, and fruit” are metaphors of? Using the definition from a Bible dictionary, not a science one.
     
  2. Windwalker

    Windwalker Integralist
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    Anyone smoking baby back ribs has my respect! Enjoy.
    I did that for you this morning already before you posted this.
     
    #202 Windwalker, Aug 11, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2017
  3. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    What does it mean that Jesus Christ is present in the Eucharist under the appearances of bread and wine? How does this happen? The presence of the risen Christ in the Eucharist is an inexhaustible mystery that the Church can never fully explain in words. We must remember that the triune God is the creator of all that exists and has the power to do more than we can possibly imagine. The Real Presence in the Eucharist

    Have you heard of the accidents and substance of the Eucharist? The mystical nature of how even though the wine and bread look like wine and bread (accidents) the substance (the spirit or mystical nature behind it, I guess you can say) is jesus christ.

    It's not literal in that you can see the two and see jesus himself as a human being. To many non-catholics it would be mystical because it it's talking about the nature of something(s) that cannot be proven by material things and five senses.

    The resurrection is mystical. Try jumping off your bed and flying to god. Gravity didn't just "stop working" near 2,000 years ago and picked up in the year, I don't know, 1999.

    God is mystical. Explain god to me from a christian view-not his image or representative-but god/creator himself.

    A lot of religious superstitions (common unproven beliefs) are mystical. Depends on how one sees it, I guess.
     
  4. Ted Evans

    Ted Evans Active Member
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    #48

    #98


    I do not understand how your response answered the question, “what is their meaning”? It seems to me to be your opinion relative to Genesis 1. Would you say other linguistic and Bible scholars would disagree with you? Just as an example,

    “The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit with seed in them, after their kind; and God saw that it was good.” (Genesis 1:12, NASB95)

    Can you explain what, “earth, vegetation, plants, seed, trees, and fruit” are metaphors of? Using the definition of a Bible dictionary, not a science one.


    #48


    OK, this is what I mean by inspired.

    “the nature or state of being God—‘deity, divine nature, divine being.”

    Or, if you prefer from an English dictionary.

    “of, relating to, or proceeding directly from God”

    Does that answer your question?



    I am assuming that to be a typo and was meant to be “dictated” and yes, I do, in some instances like this example,

    “Then the Lord said to Moses, “Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.”” (Exodus 34:27, NASB95)

    Is that not a dictation in your mind, or, will you claim it to be a metaphor? There are a few dozen examples of this but I have no doubt that you can make them a metaphor of something.

    “Now the Lord spoke through His servants the prophets, saying,” (2 Kings 21:10, NASB95)

    This was the way God conversed with the people, He spoke to the prophets who in turn relayed His message to the people. The people spoke to the priest who in turn relayed their message to God. A pretty good system for OT times, don’t you think?

    Different story for the authors in the NT, their instructions came from the Holy Spirit, some examples,

    “for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say.”” (Luke 12:12, NASB95)

    ““But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.” (John 14:26, NASB95)

    “And coming to us, he took Paul’s belt and bound his own feet and hands, and said, “This is what the Holy Spirit says: ‘In this way the Jews at Jerusalem will bind the man who owns this belt and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.’ ”” (Acts 21:11, NASB95)

    “for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.” (2 Peter 1:21, NASB95)

    For those who believe in God, this seems to irrefutably refute man’s fairy tale account of Genesis but no problem, make it a metaphor for whatever is needed for the narrative, correct?



    OK, but the NT is full of rebuttals, I would suggest that you do a study of the Holy Spirit as it is relayed in scripture, not someone’s religion.

    No, why should I, was Satan created or do you propose that Satan is only a metaphor?

    OK, can you quote the scriptures that say what you assert?



    ““Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.” (Matthew 24:35, NASB95)

    I would suggest a word study of “My word”, it just may be a learning experience for you but then perhaps not if you do not believe God’s word is what it claims to be, probably not.
     
  5. Windwalker

    Windwalker Integralist
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    Everything regarding reading the Bible is our opinions. Some opinions however are better informed than others.

    I would say of course yes. But I am working from the context of modern scholarship, not scholarship that starts with the premise the Bible is flawless and without errors. That premise I reject, so where they end will obviously not agree with me, nor me with them. Who has the better support? I believe modern scholarship does.

    The general metaphor is the creation of the earth in how the writers(s) of Genesis imaged that to be. The inclusion of familiar items such plants and trees and whatnot, are just vehicles, ornaments of the metaphor in general. You know, any work of fiction might include scenes of Chicago, but just because Chicago exists, it doesn't mean the story of Mary and Steve's hot love during the prohibition era is actual history.
     
  6. Windwalker

    Windwalker Integralist
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    No, actually it doesn't. Being God, is being God. Being inspired means "God breathed" in however you imagine, or hopefully experience that for yourself to be. To be inspired, means it is God, or Spirit 'breathing' into and through your humanity. And what comes out, is your expression of that Spirit. It doesn't make the content without error! That's a magical, superhero sort of story for the imagination. The reality of it is actually far more inspiring as it happens in a natural context, rather than a fictional one.

    You seriously do not understand what a metaphor actually is, which I see as the very source of your literalism for you. I think this poses the greatest challenge for me to communicate with those who actually don't understand the nature of "as if" statements. All language is metaphor. All science is metaphor too. Everything we say about reality are 'as if' statements, and none of it actually defines it in reality. When it comes go God, then we are over the top beyond trying to define and box it into the symbols of our languages and thoughts.

    To put it simply, your arguments are mistaking fingers pointing at the moon, with the moon itself.

    Everything we put into words is metaphor. What does it signify beyond the signifer? Now that is the interesting part of exploring truth and meaning for us as human beings.

    I do not view Paul, or any of the other Biblical authors as necessarily more knowledgeable of God than myself, and find myself wincing at their bizarre ideas at certain points, but also recognizing the time in which they thought and wrote what they did as they did. But there are times I find myself nodding in agreement with a solidarity of spirit. I don't idolize the people. I see them as myself, trying to but a Face on Infinity using the language systems of our days to try to talk about something that cannot be defined within them. So citing scriptures to me will always be held against my own experiences and knowledge of God in this day and age in which I live. They didn't have access to this, so I would not expect them to necessary frame things the same way. I simply don't have that expectation of them.

    I spend a great deal of time in communion with Spirit. If you read these texts without that as a backdrop of personal experience, of course what you read will lack that context. A context which to me says you either have some clue, or are just blindly clueless. Study without life experience leaves you with a very distorted view of reality.

    A metaphor, of course. Same thing with hell. And it's not "only" a metaphor. A metaphor is way, way, way more powerful than mere descriptors. This is something you fail to realize. You should ask me to explain more about this if you care to learn.

    I did in the very quote you grabbed! Didn't you read it? I quoted Psalm 19 for you! Here, again,

    The heavens declare the glory of God;
    the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
    2 Day after day they pour forth speech;
    night after night they reveal knowledge.
    3 They have no speech, they use no words;
    no sound is heard from them.
    4 Yet their voice goes out into all the earth,
    their words to the ends of the world.

    As Jesus said to the religious who wouldn't trust anything or anyone but their religious authorities, if you don't believe me, then believe the scriptures. There you go then.... it is written...

    Obviously that can't be literal, as once humans are all dead, so does human language. He must not be referring to what's in the Bible! ;)

    I don't believe "God's word" claims to be what you claim. But again, even if it did somehow, I do not consider that a necessary prerequisite for people knowing the Truth of God. If you make it that, you're going to alienate anyone who accepts modern science and scholarship. Is that how you bring people to the knowledge of God? By asking them to sever their minds from good reason? Phooey to that lunacy.
     
    #206 Windwalker, Aug 11, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2017
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  7. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    What opinion did I express?
     
  8. Sanzbir

    Sanzbir Well-Known Member

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    I'm not a Christian, but the OP topic makes me think of the following question:

    Can Moses tell parables??

    Because, in the Judaeo-Christian narrative, we have Moses writing these stories down originally.

    And we have Jesus, then, in the new testament, giving parable after parable almost constantly in order to illustrate his points.

    So in the stuff that Moses went and wrote down: Which of it is history?? Which of it is parable??

    Why is it no one assumes Luke 10:25-37 is the bible stating, unequivocally, that there was a literal man who was literally robbed and who, in his hour of need, was ignored by a priest and a Levite only to be helped by a foreign Samaratan??

    Jesus can tell stories, it seems, without everyone reading them assuming they are literal history, yet if Moses writes down a story then people seem to unquestionably assert it is meant to be a record of definite history.

    It just seems a bit of an odd discrepancy to me.
     
  9. Ted Evans

    Ted Evans Active Member
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    So you cannot quote me stating that thought, it was nothing more than your interpretation, right?. Why on earth would I think that? Science admits it cannot answer the question, where does space, matter, energy and time come from and Genesis makes it clear that God created them on day one.


    It most certainly is wrong and will be wrong unless science can explain, with empirical evidence, where space, matter, energy and time came from before the “rapid expansion” and what the sequence of events were. Science will never have an explanation, that can be proven with science using natural laws, how SEMT were created, even if they have billllllions of years. I think if the Genesis deniers were honest, they know that something cannot be created from nothing and that is what would have to happen for the universe to be created without a supernatural, intelligent being programming it. In fact, the Genesis account will be proven correct before the science version, since we are throwing opinions out.




    Very good, science can only explain some things that happened after the initial act setting into motion the creation of all things. That is why they are so intent on starting with, “after the beginning” and they try to make excuses for things they have no answers for but also try to convey their account is the only possible one and is proven by science, hogwash.

    There is an enormous amount of fantastic explanations and benefits that science does and I support wholeheartedly what is proven as an absolute fact. Nothing wrong with hypothesis and theories, just as long as they are not passed off as “science” which I do not believe honest scientist do. It seems to come more from the Bible deniers, IMO.
     
  10. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member

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    Same old atheist hijacking of a thread stated as expressly for Christians. They never change their hypocritical proselytizing no matter if they are invited, or not. They put Jehovah's witnesses to shame in their forceful intrusions.
     
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  11. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member

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    If you aren't a Christian, why did you get involved in the first place ? The OP was for Christians.
     
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  12. Ted Evans

    Ted Evans Active Member
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    I have no argument against that assertion.:)
     
  13. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    I'm an artist, so mysticism in itself is not necessarily a problem. But when I got some many years ago, I discovered that the way my brain works means that I need to keep a respectable distance from it, or it can 'own me'. It's just a personal thing.

    Philosophically speaking, however, I am very grateful for the great existential mysteries. They are what sets us free, and makes our lives so wonderful and interesting. I can't even imagine what a drudgery life would be if I had the answers to those big existential questions.
     
  14. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    Well, you and I see things very differently, that is a surety.
     
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  15. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Not limit, but to me more like the 'counting of time' such as those who will rule with Christ for a millennium-long day of governing over Earth according to Revelation 20:6. And God does control ( or regulate time ) because at the end of the thousand years Jesus hands back God's kingdom government to God according to 1 Corinthians 15:24-26.

    True, according to Psalms 90:2 that God is always there ( 'everlasting' as in we can count endlessly both forwards and backwards forever and ever ) so God is Not limited by time, but that does Not mean God does Not have a viewpoint about time on Earth.
     
  16. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    If time does Not matter, then why are all of the creative days summed up by the word ' day ' at Genesis 2:4.
     
  17. Ted Evans

    Ted Evans Active Member
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    Did I say that it did or, are you just trying to spin or deflect? In essence, what I said was if you could explain, with logical verifiable evidence, where space, matter, energy and time came from, I would accept your views, is that not what I said?

    In addition, would you quote me ever rejecting anything that you can explain with empirical evidence? Hypothesis, theories, speculation, conjecture is not empirical evidence and I do not much care how you got there, it still is not a provable fact.

    BTW, you did not answer the question as it was asked, did you?

    I agree, that is the real problem, you cannot answer the “big questions” which means that your answers to the little questions cannot answer the “big question”. I can certainly agree with that and glad to see you admit the obvious.

    I do not and I challenge you to quote me saying that I do. I will accept everything you can present with empirical evidence, can you do that?

    Good try….not really because I do not fear the infallible, inerrant, inspired word of God which is my “religious community” and I can read all of scripture just as it is written that defends my doctrine, can you do that? We both know the answer to that question, don’t we?

    I have taken the liberty to quote a short article on the BB theory. I have also bolded some words for attention. What I would like, if you are up to it, is for you to highlight all of the assertions that are presented in the article as something that can be proven, will you do that? BTW, this is not from a “creationist” page.

    Origins of the Universe

    The most popular theory of our universe's origin centers on a cosmic cataclysm unmatched in all of history—the big bang. This theory was born of the observation that other galaxies are moving away from our own at great speed, in all directions, as if they had all been propelled by an ancient explosive force.

    WHAT IS THE BIG BANG THEORY?
    Before the big bang, scientists believe the entire vastness of the observable universe, including all of its matter and radiation, was compressed into a hot, dense mass just a few millimeters across. This nearly incomprehensible state is theorized to have existed for just a fraction of the first second of time.

    Big bang proponents suggest that some 10 billion to 20 billion years ago, a massive blast allowed all the universe's known matter and energy—even space and time themselves—to spring from some ancient and unknown type of energy.

    The theory maintains that, in the instant—a trillion-trillionth of a second—after the big bang, the universe expanded with incomprehensible speed from its pebble-size origin to astronomical scope. Expansion has apparently continued, but much more slowly, over the ensuing billions of years.

    Scientists can't be sure exactly how the universe evolved after the big bang. Many believe that as time passed and matter cooled, more diverse kinds of atoms began to form, and they eventually condensed into the stars and galaxies of our present universe.

    ORIGINS OF THE THEORY
    A Belgian priest named Georges Lemaître first suggested the big bang theory in the 1920s when he theorized that the universe began from a single primordial atom. The idea subsequently received major boosts by Edwin Hubble's observations that galaxies are speeding away from us in all directions, and from the discovery of cosmic microwave radiation by Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson.

    The glow of cosmic microwave background radiation, which is found throughout the universe, is thought to be a tangible remnant of leftover light from the big bang. The radiation is akin to that used to transmit TV signals via antennas. But it is the oldest radiation known and may hold many secrets about the universe's earliest moments.

    The big bang theory leaves several major questions unanswered. One is the original cause of the big bang itself. Several answers have been proposed to address this fundamental question, but none has been proven—and even adequately testing them has proven to be a formidable challenge.

    The Origins of the Universe

    And people promote this as “science” proving the BB….really? Well, at least the author of this article seems to be honest and does not try to present something as a fact when it cannot be done.
     
  18. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find there is Nothing in Scripture (Bible speak) saying how long each of the creative days were, or even if they were of the same or of differing lengths of time. Genesis 2:4 sums up all of the creative days by using the word ' day '.
    So, as we use the word day to have different lengths of time such as in the expression saying Grandfather's Day and we know his day was longer than a 24-hr. day.
     
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  19. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    When KJV translated John 1:1 KJV left out the letter "a" at John 1 but added the letter "a" at Acts of the Apostles 28:6 B even though the same Greek grammar rule applies at both verses.

    I find the pre-human heavenly Jesus was "in" the beginning, whereas only God was "before" the beginning according to Psalms 90:2. So, as Revelation 3:14 B says about Jesus that he is the beginning of the creation by God.
    Since only God was before the beginning, then Jesus was Not before the beginning as God was before the beginning.
     
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  20. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    I never said time doesn't matter. The passage of time has no effect on God and does not limit Him so a 1000 years are like a day and a day is like thousand years to God, but definitely not to us.
     
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