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Do you believe God’s word or man’s?

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Good enough WW, any discussion of scripture between you and I is not possible. If we can arbitrarily dismiss anything that we think is wrong then we get nowhere.
I don't arbitrarily dismiss anything. I have sound reasons why I don't accept how you interpret things based on the larger context I hold them within. There is nothing arbitrary at all. I can defend at length my basis for my thoughts. Maybe if you ask some one specific thing, I can demonstrate that for you?

You delete what you do not like and I will do the same and then there is nothing left of the Christian Bible.
That's not what will happen. What will happen is you will loosen your stranglehold on meaning, tightly gripping scripture with your beliefs and refusing to let it inspire thoughts beyond the ones you frantically cling to to find meaning in your life.

I will leave you with a few quotes, no doubt you will make them a metaphor for something.

All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;” (2 Timothy 3:16, NASB95)

For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.” (Romans 15:4, NASB95)

I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.” (Revelation 22:18–19, NASB95)
These are all expressions of how the various authors held their understanding of these things in their minds. End of story. BTW, you're bastardizing these passages to make them fit your peculiarly modern theologies. I won't waste my time teasing them out of that snarled you've entwined them into.

Good luck with your religion WW, hope modern science can explain to you how to spend eternity in heaven. Obviously, God cannot.
Oh, my temptation is to give you the middle finger here, but then I realize I'm not talking with someone who truly understands what being a Christian means. In your own words, you're a Bible Believer. That's something radically different than a follower of Jesus. You sit in judgement of me and my relationship with God, and that puts your own finger flipping yourself off.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
The Bible is the word of God. Christ is the word:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

God's Message is the Word and the Word, that Message Is god.

And the message turned human incarnate in Hebrews and the Messenger spoke of the message in the gosepels, to speak of what the mesaage of god said: sacrifice and reserection

Through

Jesus christ.

The word, word means message
God had a message he sent to his people; they didnt listen
God decides to make his message (his word) incarnate human
The Word caps is a proper noun for the person who "represe ts" the message of god.

So, yes, the word was with god and was god because "that" is god's message.

You are worshiping the messenger who has the propernoun Word over the person/word that message is from.

I will try to explain it a it later if you are willing to understand what Im saying. I hear your views daily. Im in a christian living, local, "and" socity environment. Youre not telling me something new.

Just step out of your shoes and see things different sometime.

....
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Have you never heard of the god of the gaps fallacy? You want to lose faith in God? That's a sure recipe for it. Once science can answer that, then where do God exist for you? Your faith with die, and you will be that neo-atheist you think doesn't get it! They're just one step ahead of you, on your current path.
Actually, what'll happen is Ted will have his preferred gap (the origin of the universe) that he'll use to justify his beliefs. If in his lifetime science ever fills that gap, Ted will just deny that science until the day he dies. Then the next generation of fundamentalist Christians will have their own, different preferred gap that they'll stick to until they die, and so on and so on.

So until we've explained everything in the entire history of the universe, fundamentalist Christians will always have something to point to and say "Ah ha! Science has no explanation for that, therefore God!!!"
 

WalterTrull

Godfella
God's Message is the Word and the Word, that Message Is god.

And the message turned human incarnate in Hebrews and the Messenger spoke of the message in the gosepels, to speak of what the mesaage of god said: sacrifice and reserection

Through

Jesus christ.....

Gotta coupla interesting definitions here. Nice. Some of it's a bit vague, never-the-less... Did you ever notice how we are scenario builders. S'pose that's our true function?
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
God's Message is the Word and the Word, that Message Is god.

And the message turned human incarnate in Hebrews and the Messenger spoke of the message in the gosepels, to speak of what the mesaage of god said: sacrifice and reserection

Through

Jesus christ.

The word, word means message
God had a message he sent to his people; they didnt listen
God decides to make his message (his word) incarnate human
The Word caps is a proper noun for the person who "represe ts" the message of god.

So, yes, the word was with god and was god because "that" is god's message.

You are worshiping the messenger who has the propernoun Word over the person/word that message is from.

I will try to explain it a it later if you are willing to understand what Im saying. I hear your views daily. Im in a christian living, local, "and" socity environment. Youre not telling me something new.

Just step out of your shoes and see things different sometime.

....

What? I most assuredly do not understand what you said there.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
The bible is poetic; so, Ima break it down best I can.

The Bible is the word of God. Christ is the word: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

1.

The definition of a word.

A unit of language, consisting of one or more spoken sounds or their written representation, that functions as a principal carrier of meaning.

So we have unit of language that represents a meaning (a message)

2. The Bible

Then you have a collection of words with a central meaning(s). This is called a book. Christians call this book with a central meaning to their faith, Scripture or The Bible.

3. Since Christians believe god inspired men to write the bible (god's message), it became the Word of God (you can't separate the message from the source-hence "The Word was with god and the Word was god".)

4. The message is the God's Word. The Word (God's Message) is about Christ his son. Because christ is god's son and he is an "invisible image of an invisible god" he is the Message itself, the Word.

5. Since the God can't be separate from his Message just as he cannot be separated from his son, Christians think Christ is god. It totally makes sence why you'd think that.

But Christ puts himself in a submissive position to where there is no doubt he is not god but the message of god incarnate. Totally different.

6. Why call me [christ] good, the only good is the father.

Why would he not want to be called good when he is "god"? Odviously, he did not want to take ownership of God's Word. He just represents/incarnate of it. (People can't separate incarnates from who they are incarnated from. Like telling me that I am my mother because I am her child)

7. My father and I are one.

Conjunctions (prepositions and articles) show a lot of separation in authority and nature between father and son incarnate.

I am of the father .... from the faher I am sent things like that. I go to my father. I don't go to myself. Reminds me of sci-fi when someone splits in two and then they rejoin to one like a robot or something. Weird. Dont think that' Roman Paganism definitely not Jewish.

word=message
Word=message incarnate
The mesage is god's message

The incarnation/message is a human-Christ

The reason you guys think god is christ is because god speaks of his incarnation in relationship to himself.

But you can go to christ without going to the words of the bible. You can go to the God's Message Incarnate directly. Why go through middlemen and jump hoops in these denominations and translations when you can go to prayer and speak to god himself and his incarnated message?

Buddhism actually uses The Buddha to represent The Dhamma message. Though we don't mistake The Buddha from The Dhamma. In some sects they are incarnate. Other sects they are not.

But like christ and his father, they are separate.

You don't need the bible to know this. Just Christ (message) and his father (god)
 
Last edited:

PureX

Veteran Member
Actually, science (Quantum Physics) does have an explanation for that and it's God. Read a little Richard Conn Henry, Astrophysicist at Johns Hopkins.
Most religionists will not likely accept this idea until science finds a personality to go along with the physics. Or better still, some sort of "cognitive energy".
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
The bible is poetic; so, Ima break it down best I can.



1.

The definition of a word.

A unit of language, consisting of one or more spoken sounds or their written representation, that functions as a principal carrier of meaning.

So we have unit of language that represents a meaning (a message)

2. The Bible

Then you have a collection of words with a central meaning(s). This is called a book. Christians call this book with a central meaning to their faith, Scripture or The Bible.

3. Since Christians believe god inspired men to write the bible (god's message), it became the Word of God (you can't separate the message from the source-hence "The Word was with god and the Word was god".)

4. The message is the God's Word. The Word (God's Message) is about Christ his son. Because christ is god's son and he is an "invisible image of an invisible god" he is the Message itself, the Word.

5. Since the God can't be separate from his Message just as he cannot be separated from his son, Christians think Christ is god. It totally makes sence why you'd think that.

But Christ puts himself in a submissive position to where there is no doubt he is not god but the message of god incarnate. Totally different.

6. Why call me [christ] good, the only good is the father.

Why would he not want to be called good when he is "god"? Odviously, he did not want to take ownership of God's Word. He just represents/incarnate of it. (People can't separate incarnates from who they are incarnated from. Like telling me that I am my mother because I am her child)

7. My father and I are one.

Conjunctions (prepositions and articles) show a lot of separation in authority and nature between father and son incarnate.

I am of the father .... from the faher I am sent things like that. I go to my father. I don't go to myself. Reminds me of sci-fi when someone splits in two and then they rejoin to one like a robot or something. Weird. Dont think that' Roman Paganism definitely not Jewish.

word=message
Word=message incarnate
The mesage is god's message

The incarnation/message is a human-Christ

The reason you guys think god is christ is because god speaks of his incarnation in relationship to himself.

But you can go to christ without going to the words of the bible. You can go to the God's Message Incarnate directly. Why go through middlemen and jump hoops in these denominations and translations when you can go to prayer and speak to god himself and his incarnated message?

Buddhism actually uses The Buddha to represent The Dhamma message. Though we don't mistake The Buddha from The Dhamma. In some sects they are incarnate. Other sects they are not.

But like christ and his father, they are separate.

You don't need the bible to know this. Just Christ (message) about his father (god)

John 14:9
Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?


That verse leaves no doubt that Jesus and the Father are one and the same.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Gotta coupla interesting definitions here. Nice. Some of it's a bit vague, never-the-less... Did you ever notice how we are scenario builders. S'pose that's our true function?

I don't understand?

Cliff notes: The message is god's word. God's word became incarnate. The incarnation is a human being/christ. Since the message has became human an the message cannot be separated from the person who sent it, CHristians think they are one and the same.

They are not.

Christ teaches they are not and even fusses at his disciples over worshiping him rather than god.

If christ did not correct people, yes, you got a point. SInce he did, incarnation, intermediary, image of, are not the source.

It's in the dictionary, these words.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
God's Message is the Word and the Word, that Message Is god.

And the message turned human incarnate in Hebrews and the Messenger spoke of the message in the gosepels, to speak of what the mesaage of god said: sacrifice and reserection

Through

Jesus christ.
I don't necessarily disagree.

I just don't personally see the advantage of mystifying it in this way. I am a very pragmatic person. The truth is 'what is', for me. And even that's speculation more than it's not. So I tend not to work at mystifying things any further than they already are. :)
 

Ted Evans

Active Member
Premium Member
I don't arbitrarily dismiss anything.

Just a note WW, I am not ignoring your responses but in the process of rechecking from the beginning if I have answered your questions up to the point of my last post I am also in the process of smoking some baby back ribs and a pork loin which comes first.

Also, you are correct about the 24 hour day being a legitimate discussion and I will address that later.
 

Grumpuss

Active Member
John 14:9
Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?


That verse leaves no doubt that Jesus and the Father are one and the same.
Yes, oh yes- this definitely. How anyone could debate such a thing is ludicrous!
 

WalterTrull

Godfella
John 14:9
Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?


That verse leaves no doubt that Jesus and the Father are one and the same.

Hmm.. All squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I don't necessarily disagree.

I just don't personally see the advantage of mystifying it in this way. I am a very pragmatic person. The truth is 'what is', for me. And even that's speculation more than it's not. So I tend not to work at mystifying things any further than they already are. :)

Yeah. Catholicism is all mystical. Probably the most mystical well known denomination there is, most likely.

I actually don't know how to demystify it because my whole experience was "supernatural" in origin. Even prayers. How would you define everything without mystical language?
 

Ted Evans

Active Member
Premium Member
So being a Christian in your book. ...

Catching up with questions that I cannot find answers for, you or me. I am taking these in the order they appear.

tevans9129;n45092 said:
I would also like to know the sequence in which they came into existence or if it was all at the same time, can you answer that?
#47
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
Yeah. Catholicism is all mystical. Probably the most mystical well known denomination there is, most likely.

I actually don't know how to demystify it because my whole experience was "supernatural" in origin. Even prayers. How would you define everything without mystical language?

Catholicism isn't too mystical. It's more practical than mystical.
 

Ted Evans

Active Member
Premium Member
It's still a metaphor.


tevans9129;n45092 said:
Says who and on what grounds?
#48

This was your answer in #98.

Lot's of Christians, including some of the early church fathers from the 2nd century!

I do not believe, "including some of the early church fathers from the 2nd century" is a true statement, can you provide a quote, a link? Can you provide a list of the ECF that suggested the Genesis creation account is a metaphor?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Catholicism isn't too mystical. It's more practical than mystical.

Yeah, when I translate it into plain language. If I speak the mystical words, they understand me. If I break it down, it's more they haven't heard it "like that" before. Roman Catholic is pretty mystical. I'm not familiar with the other liturgical churches.
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
Yeah, when I translate it into plain language. If I speak the mystical words, they understand me. If I break it down, it's more they haven't heard it "like that" before. Roman Catholic is pretty mystical. I'm not familiar with the other liturgical churches.

Tell me exactly how it's mystical.
 
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