Do you believe God’s word or man’s?

[Unveiled Artist]

Christ trained and prepared the Apostles personally. I will hear and believe them before I will hear you.

Why them and not christ?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Catherine was tormented with a hard decision. Who should she turn to?

Christ?

or

The Bible?

She didn't know. Then she opened the bible read this verse that answered her question.

"[You] search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." John 5:39 (KJVA)

She nodded, gave away her bible, and went to pray.

She chose Christ

@DavidFirth go to christ

 

[Grandliseur]

1) This is intended for those who say they are Christians [one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ] but try to explain away the creation version in Genesis using “interpretation” and/or “translation” issues in order to reconcile with non-believers.

2) The issue of a normal 24 hour day as opposed to a period of time.

“God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.” (Genesis 1:5, NASB95)

3) Every place in Genesis with the subject of creation uses the noun, common, singular, absolute of “yom”. Whereas, when used as a time other than evening and morning, it is not NC-SA. As an example…
View attachment 18516 View attachment 18517

4) Notice the Morphology changes from noun, common, singular, absolute to noun, common, masculine, plural, construct. Are the Hebraist contending there is not a difference in meaning?

5) In addition, I find the following chart interesting.
View attachment 18518

“Yom NC-SA - day (sunset) n. — a unit of time from sunset until the next sunset; including evening and morning.”


6) When taken in like context with other scriptures, “yom” NC-SA is used 1292 times, whereas, when used as meaning something other than evening and morning, a different morphology is used, at least from what I have been able to find.

7) Graphs and quotes are from…


Faithlife Corporation. (2017). day (sunset) (Version 6.14 SR-5) [Computer software]. Logos Bible Software Bible Sense Lexicon. Bellingham, WA: Faithlife Corporation. Retrieved from https://ref.ly/logos4/Senses;KeyId=ws.day.n.01

[God's word - writings in the Judeo-Christian Scriptures that were inspired by God....Man's word - claims and writings by man that were not inspired by God]

I believe in the Bible as God's word and in being understood by a harmonious comprehensive acceptance of all, OT & NT, to understand what is taught.

I am an OEC, and believe the YECs are going against what is taught.

If you want to discuss this in a respectful and logical manner using scriptures. I will be happy to oblige. If on the other hand, you just jump and try to intimidate those who do not agree with you, please do not answer. I go by the Bible.

 

[metis]

• Do you believe this verse to mean what it says or do you take it as a metaphor and if so, what does it mean?

  More as allegory, probably a reworking of a somewhat similar Babylonian set of narratives so as to reflect Jewish values and norms. All cultures do this, and we well know that the Babylonian narratives were familiar to at least some living in eretz Israel because a tablet of it was found in northern Israel that predates the writing of Genesis by approximately a thousand years..

“All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;” (2 Timothy 3:16, NASB95)

Does that say "all Scripture"? How can we use all scripture if it is not accurate?

First of all, this verse could not possibly pertain to the N.T. since it was in the process of being written, plus the Christian canon had not yet been selected.

Secondly, pretty much all religions make such claims, so why would one buy one and not any of the others.

To answer your question, perhaps there is no problem relative to salvation but what does it convey to non-believers if Christians say the Genesis' account of creation is wrong but you must believe other parts of the Bible as being accurate? I would just smile at them....come to think of it, I did, before I came to believe the Bible is exactly what it claims to be.

So, you believe in literally every little thing as found in the Bible? Are you aware that even Aquinas concluded that using such an approach means that Jesus could not possibly be the Messiah? Are you aware of the fact that the concept of the Bible being totally inerrant wasn't even contrived until near the end of 19th century? Are you aware of the fact that when you say the Bible is the "Word of God", you've formed an idol?

I taught theology for many years, but I never ever considered the Bible to be perfect, and neither did the early church.

To pick one narrative out of all the Bible and then use that as some sort if litmus test for being a "true Christian" is ridiculous and actually anti what is actually said in John 3[16] for example. Christians generally believe in Jesus and what he taught, not in your contrived litmus test.

 

[The magical volleyball]

1) This is intended for those who say they are Christians [one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ] but try to explain away the creation version in Genesis using “interpretation” and/or “translation” issues in order to reconcile with non-believers.

2) The issue of a normal 24 hour day as opposed to a period of time.

“God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.” (Genesis 1:5, NASB95)

3) Every place in Genesis with the subject of creation uses the noun, common, singular, absolute of “yom”. Whereas, when used as a time other than evening and morning, it is not NC-SA. As an example…
View attachment 18516 View attachment 18517

4) Notice the Morphology changes from noun, common, singular, absolute to noun, common, masculine, plural, construct. Are the Hebraist contending there is not a difference in meaning?

5) In addition, I find the following chart interesting.
View attachment 18518

“Yom NC-SA - day (sunset) n. — a unit of time from sunset until the next sunset; including evening and morning.”


6) When taken in like context with other scriptures, “yom” NC-SA is used 1292 times, whereas, when used as meaning something other than evening and morning, a different morphology is used, at least from what I have been able to find.

7) Graphs and quotes are from…


Faithlife Corporation. (2017). day (sunset) (Version 6.14 SR-5) [Computer software]. Logos Bible Software Bible Sense Lexicon. Bellingham, WA: Faithlife Corporation. Retrieved from https://ref.ly/logos4/Senses;KeyId=ws.day.n.01

[God's word - writings in the Judeo-Christian Scriptures that were inspired by God....Man's word - claims and writings by man that were not inspired by God]

I'm not a Christian but i understand the dilemma they face with the story of creation. Science has provided overwhelming evidence that the earth and universe is much older than 10,000 years. When Christians or any religious follower is confronted with evidence that contradicts their belief, they then have in my opinion 3 options. First, deny that the evidence is true and must somehow be wrong. Second, accept the evidence and accept the idea that God gave man a story he could understand at the time to teach lessons of morality even if not completely true. Third, accept the evidence and reject your previous belief that what you were reading was the word of God. I find most Christians go with the second option because they believe the bibles true purpose is to inform man on how to live life not on how life was made. The formation of the universe and evolution of life are very complex subjects and would be impossible even for god to describe to people 2,000 or more years ago.

 

[QuestioningMind]

What point was that?

"if the gist of the OP is accurate, and the preponderance of the evidence indicates that the universe and earth are much, much older than 6,000-10,000 years, then I am entirely justified in rejecting the Bible as the word of God, correct?"

 

[evilsorcerer1]

What's your opinion about if Jesus was a man and rose again, where did he go. He couldn't have gotten to Mars by now. There's only stars and moons and planets out there maybe for who knows how far. I'm not saying that to be rude, I just want to discuss religion and beliefs. And I have thought he could be going to the sun, and when he gets there he might burn up and the spirit of god might throw the sun at the earth among other things like lightning. But my opinion is god and only god is spirit, and man is flesh and can only be flesh. I think people say they have a spirit in an attempt to be like god.

 

[Tumah]

Is it not also possible that it can mean exactly how it reads?

“God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.” (Genesis 1:5, NASB95)

"one (single) n. — the smallest whole number; also used to refer to a single person or thing."

"day (sunset) n. — a unit of time from sunset until the next sunset; including evening and morning."

In your opinion, is there any part of Genesis that is not a metaphor, a figure of speech? If so, can you provide some examples?

Well, the verse itself may indicate that its not meant to be read literally. Verse 2 says that darkness already existed before G-d created light. So he correct order is that morning (moving from dark to light) came before evening (moving from light to dark).

The way to figure out if something is to be understood literally or not, is to determine whether it makes sense literally. If it doesn't, then its probably a metaphor. Even though there are verses about the righteous being the foundation of the world, I don't think you believe that righteous people literally stand somewhere holding up the sky or the earth. So if there is significant reason to believe that the earth was not created over a literal 7 day period, than I would think that the possibility of the 7 days being metaphors should be entertained.

 

[Grumpuss]

You can't get to christ through john. It's between you and christ not

You-->translators-->Church-->apostles-->christ-->god

You have too many intermediaries to christ. Then mistaking christ as the source when he is only the message made flesh

Go to christ directly

When did Mr. Firth say anything about Apostles or the Church? Or "translators", whatever those may be?

Jesus, or Jesus/God are a direct line.

 

[Jumi]

How about if the Genesis account of creation is literal as it reads or is it a metaphor of some kind and if so why?

How does the meaning of words in Hebrew make something literal or metaphoric? It's the believer's choice clearly whether they take it as literal or metaphor despite what the intentions of the writers or how their vocabulary was different from English.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The way to figure out if something is to be understood literally or not, is to determine whether it makes sense literally. If it doesn't, then its probably a metaphor.

... as long as you're careful not to impose modern knowledge and views on ancient peoples.

Just because something doesn't make sense given the knowledge we've acquired over the last thousand years or so doesn't mean that the author of an ancient text didn't intend for what he wrote to be taken literally.

Also important to consider:

- would the knowledge of the time have suggested that the literal meaning was implausible?

- what level of knowledge would the author have assumed about his intended audience?

So do you have anything that would have been known to the author of this passage and his intended audience that would have made a 6-day creation implausible?

 

[Tumah]

... as long as you're careful not to impose modern knowledge and views on ancient peoples.

Just because something doesn't make sense given the knowledge we've acquired over the last thousand years or so doesn't mean that the author of an ancient text didn't intend for what he wrote to be taken literally.

Also important to consider:

- would the knowledge of the time have suggested that the literal meaning was implausible?

- what level of knowledge would the author have assumed about his intended audience?

Telling that to me, is the same as Christians quoting to you Bible verses for proofs.

So do you have anything that would have been known to the author of this passage and his intended audience that would have made a 6-day creation implausible?

Nope, nothing. The first words of my original response was "for the sake of devil's advocate". This was purely for the Christian. I'm Jewish and we don't interpret the Torah on its own. We use the works of the Oral Torah for it.

 

[DavidFirth]

"if the gist of the OP is accurate, and the preponderance of the evidence indicates that the universe and earth are much, much older than 6,000-10,000 years, then I am entirely justified in rejecting the Bible as the word of God, correct?"

No.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Telling that to me, is the same as Christians quoting to you Bible verses for proofs.

How so?

Nope, nothing. The first words of my original response was "for the sake of devil's advocate". This was purely for the Christian. I'm Jewish and we don't interpret the Torah on its own. We use the works of the Oral Torah for it.

Which is fine; don't consider just the Torah in isolation... but is there anything in the Oral Torah that suggests the pasage was intended non-literally? Anything in a Midrash that suggests that the passage was originally taken non-literally?

 

[DavidFirth]

Catherine was tormented with a hard decision. Who should she turn to?

Christ?

or

The Bible?

She didn't know. Then she opened the bible read this verse that answered her question.

"[You] search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." John 5:39 (KJVA)

She nodded, gave away her bible, and went to pray.

She chose Christ

@DavidFirth go to christ

Christ is God's word. They are one and the same.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 

[DavidFirth]

no...

No... what?

 

[DavidFirth]

Why them and not christ?

Christ commanded the Apostles to go and teach the gospel to the world. Christ commissioned His apostles, blessed them and gave them authority.

If you really wanted to follow Christ you would believe Him. It doesn't sound like you believe Him very much. What do you believe about Him?

What do you have against the Apostles?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

When did Mr. Firth say anything about Apostles or the Church? Or "translators", whatever those may be?

Jesus, or Jesus/God are a direct line.

He did not say this, I did.

Read our conversation. I told him that he is not going straight to christ but through the people above. Please read 122.

I dont put words in people's mouths.

 

[Tumah]

How so?

What constitutes valid critiquing tools when studying Tanach is different for you, Christians, and Jews. "This verse in Genesis means X because the NT says Y". "This verse in Genesis means X because society then only knew Y". What we all believe to be true is different.

Which is fine; don't consider just the Torah in isolation... but is there anything in the Oral Torah that suggests the pasage was intended non-literally? Anything in a Midrash that suggests that the passage was originally taken non-literally?

We've already had this discussion, where you discount the Talmud's interpretation because its was written much later than the Torah. But that's how it is, we believe they were given together.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Christ is God's word. They are one and the same.

John 1:1ll scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (2 Timothy 3:16).
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Edit

God's-->is a possessive.

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (2 Timothy 3:16).

God gave scripture inspiration; he did not inspire himself.

-

The Word means god's Message
The symbolism is god and message are one since it is god's message (as you quoted)
The intermediary, christ, between god and man is the messenger
He represents god's message (not is but message incarnate)
He never says he is god's message (Mark 10:18) because god and his message is good. Jesus never put himself in god's position as god.

"For the word of God is quick [living], and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit" (Hebrews 4:12).

"The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes" (Psalm 19:7-8).

God is using words/hebrew scripture as his written message.
The written message is god (as you quote). God/scripture says go to christ to receive god's (not christ) message. The Word (scripture/god) is about christ.

Christ is the body of people. You are worshiping a human being. You are not using god's message through christ/his body to worship god. It is total idolization.

Go to christ. Christ is the God's Word. You are idolizing the bible otherwise.