Concern about Atheism

[Atheist Waddle Dee]

But I always hear atheists saying morality is subjective. That calling rape immoral is subjective. How?

Did an atheist in this thread say that? Why don't you wait for someone to make an argument before claiming it? I'm an atheist, and I don't think morality is subjective.

I'm an atheist and I don't think morality is subjective; I'm moral realist, a cognitivist and a Desire Utilitarian. Atheists like every other group of people are a mixed bag.

 

[Sunstone]

Okay, so I've seen atheists say before that they wouldn't mind having a completely atheistic world, because they don't need religion for morals. Wouldn't that technically only work if the people in that world were good people by nature? Like what if the people were really bad, and the society started to get more and more corrupt? Then what would atheists do to get the society back to functioning?

You seem to assume that religion is an effective and/or efficient means of making people good, or, at least, of providing them with morals. But can you really believe that?

 

[footprints]

You seem to assume that religion is an effective and/or efficient means of making people good, or, at least, of providing them with morals. But can you really believe that?

Unfortunately as a fact of life, Religion has the only means thus far, of making people respectful, tolerant, peaceful, loving, gentle and kind. All things that the majority of people would consider good.

I speak of course, of paths of enlightenment.

 

[Sunstone]

Unfortunately as a fact of life, Religion has the only means thus far, of making people respectful, tolerant, peaceful, loving, gentle and kind. All things that the majority of people would consider good.

I speak of course, of paths of enlightenment.

It seems religion has very little to do with enlightenment and is often an impediment to it.

 

[Kerr]

Okay, so I've seen atheists say before that they wouldn't mind having a completely atheistic world, because they don't need religion for morals. Wouldn't that technically only work if the people in that world were good people by nature? Like what if the people were really bad, and the society started to get more and more corrupt? Then what would atheists do to get the society back to functioning?

Don´t think it would matter that much to be honest. Some people are good, some are bad, if they are atheists or not does not matter in my opinion. Personally I am not sure I would care, what people believe is their business and not mine, but I can see one issue with it. I believe variation and differences are important. If everyone would unite under one faith, I don´t know, it may take something away from mankind. I would much rather like to unite us under tolerance and understanding to be honest. But as I said, I am not sure I care that much.

 

[Atheist Waddle Dee]

Is it just me, or do people get away with saying extremely bigoted things about atheists?
What was the point of this thread other than to bash atheists and make bigoted remarks about them?

 

[footprints]

It seems religion has very little to do with enlightenment and is often an impediment to it.

Not quite so, Buddhism, Hinduism and other religious beliefs still promote them. Not very effectively in many cases, albeit the teachings are still there. Albeit, I can truly understand what you mean.

When I followed the path of enlightenment of Buddha, due to work and travel commitments, I was forced into going to 7 different temples. Do you know that each temple had different methods in place and based on the same teaching? In the end I declared it a joke and went straight to the source and worked it out for myself, based on other paths of enlightenment which I had already followed. That of course now makes 8 different paths of enlightenment I personally know of pertaining to Buddha, the 7 in the 7 different temples, and the one I worked out for myself.

As for Christianity, this path of enlightenment is quite hard to find, albeit it is right there in front of everybody's nose. Sort of a person can't see the forest because of the trees scenario. There is no Christian based religion that I personally know of, that teaches and promotes the path of enlightenment as left by Jesus. More is the pity, albeit I have nothing to do with a church, so it doesn't really bother me, as long as the people are happy with their belief, this is the main thing.

 

[footprints]

Is it just me, or do people get away with saying extremely bigoted things about atheists?
What was the point of this thread other than to bash atheists and make bigoted remarks about them?

No it just isn't you, though it makes a change from threads set out to bash theists and make bigoted remarks about them, don't you think?

 

[footprints]

Don´t think it would matter that much to be honest. Some people are good, some are bad, if they are atheists or not does not matter in my opinion. Personally I am not sure I would care, what people believe is their business and not mine, but I can see one issue with it. I believe variation and differences are important. If everyone would unite under one faith, I don´t know, it may take something away from mankind. I would much rather like to unite us under tolerance and understanding to be honest. But as I said, I am not sure I care that much.

I can only agree Kerr, it would take something away from mankind, a lot of intolerance, a lot of bickering and fighting, in fact a whole heap of negative things. What gets me is, why do people want to keep things which creates negativity?

Nobody fights, argues or bickers about things which they agree on. Fighting, arguing and bickering only stems from things which people disagree on.

Would you give up your beliefs if it meant having a more peaceful, tolerant and loving world?

 

[bobhikes]

Would you give up your beliefs if it meant having a more peaceful, tolerant and loving world?

Isn't this the meaning of Religion. Give up your beliefs for the truths of a God. In some religions you will eventually have a peaceful, loving world. In others you get this in the afterlife.

 

[xkatz]

People can be immoral, regardless if they are religious or not.

 

[footprints]

Isn't this the meaning of Religion. Give up your beliefs for the truths of a God. In some religions you will eventually have a peaceful, loving world. In others you get this in the afterlife.

Religions are wide and varied, yet the vast majority, built from the major religious bases, all in the end, if practiced completely and the path of enlightenment left in each is followed to the letter, all lead a person to the same state of mind, Nirvana.

What is right and what is wrong? What is good and what is bad? All are based on human perception and the position something is viewed from. What is right or good to one person can be wrong or bad to another.

A teaching given me by an Australian aboriginal Elder gives me a measuring stick. Life he told me was for everybody to share equally. One person has no more right than any other person. How do we know what is best for all, and not just best for the few. We need to have a guide, and the guide we use is a simple one, whatever the human action is, we expand this to cover the all. If everybody was to scream and shout angry words at each other all at the same time, would the world be a better place or a worse place to live in? If the answer is a worse place, then we need to get rid of it. It is like the boomerang, he said to me, if it returns nicely and lands at your feet, it is something worth keeping, if it can do you or others harm and tries to take your head off, it is just a stick, thow it away, it isn't worth keeping anyway.

 

[bobhikes]

A teaching given me by an Australian aboriginal Elder gives me a measuring stick. Life he told me was for everybody to share equally. One person has no more right than any other person. How do we know what is best for all, and not just best for the few. We need to have a guide, and the guide we use is a simple one, whatever the human action is, we expand this to cover the all. If everybody was to scream and shout angry words at each other all at the same time, would the world be a better place or a worse place to live in? If the answer is a worse place, then we need to get rid of it. It is like the boomerang, he said to me, if it returns nicely and lands at your feet, it is something worth keeping, if it can do you or others harm and tries to take your head off, it is just a stick, thow it away, it isn't worth keeping anyway.

But the problem is nothing will land at your feet if everyone has a say, you will never even get close. Only if you limit who has a say can you ever get it to return completely and that is cheating.

 

[Atheist Waddle Dee]

No it just isn't you, though it makes a change from threads set out to bash theists and make bigoted remarks about them, don't you think?

Bigotry is disgusting. Whether a bigot be atheist or theist, I don't care. I have no respect for bigots. It's wrong when theists promote anti-atheist bigotry and it's wrong when atheists promote anti-theist bigotry. Two wrongs do not make a right. It's hypocrisy to criticize individuals for a vice and then indulge in the same vice.

 

[footprints]

But the problem is nothing will land at your feet if everyone has a say, you will never even get close. Only if you limit who has a say can you ever get it to return completely and that is cheating.

I can only agree, it is a big problem, for everybody in free countries do have their say. All humans have intelligence, and will use it, as forums like this testify.

We live in a justified world. The Australian aboriginal, prior to the first fleet, lived in base reality, no justification there. We have Democracy, or majority rules, the Australian aboriginal had the Elder System or everybody rules. Two different systems, two different outcomes. One system tends to make the majority happy some of the time, the other system made everybody happy, all of the time.

The American forefathers in their intial plan, gave the citizens the right to vote for one house, but took this right away from them in the other house. I believe they knew and understood, that although all citizens of the US had the intelligence to vote, they didn't have the wisdom to always vote intelligently.

 

[Atheist Waddle Dee]

Isn't this the meaning of Religion. Give up your beliefs for the truths of a God. In some religions you will eventually have a peaceful, loving world. In others you get this in the afterlife.

Not all Religions have gods or an afterlife. Many sects of Buddhism for example place a heavy focus on the here and now and don't have gods or an afterlife. All a religion is a system of beliefs and rituals.

 

[footprints]

Bigotry is disgusting. Whether a bigot be atheist or theist, I don't care. I have no respect for bigots. It's wrong when theists promote anti-atheist bigotry and it's wrong when atheists promote anti-theist bigotry. Two wrongs do not make a right. It's hypocrisy to criticize individuals for a vice and then indulge in the same vice.

I can only agree.

Albeit, I also know and understand, you cannot call a person or group of people a bigot, without being a bigot yourself.

However, in saying that, I do find this post a lot more reasonable and balanced than your first one. You acknowledge in this one, both sides do the same wrong and there is absolutely no difference between them, in this respect.

 

[bobhikes]

I can only agree, it is a big problem, for everybody in free countries do have their say. All humans have intelligence, and will use it, as forums like this testify.

We live in a justified world. The Australian aboriginal, prior to the first fleet, lived in base reality, no justification there. We have Democracy, or majority rules, the Australian aboriginal had the Elder System or everybody rules. Two different systems, two different outcomes. One system tends to make the majority happy some of the time, the other system made everybody happy, all of the time.

The American forefathers in their intial plan, gave the citizens the right to vote for one house, but took this right away from them in the other house. I believe they knew and understood, that although all citizens of the US had the intelligence to vote, they didn't have the wisdom to always vote intelligently.

Earlier you stated as Religions are the only way to have morals but these statements seem for counter that.

From my standpoint, Humans created all that we have today and while there is bad stuff most of what we have is good. You yourself seem to agree with this. If there is mostly good stuff on the earth and we have multiple religions and atheists all together why is it only religions create morals. Are all the atheists creating the bad things that happen in the world. Don't even the religious stray and sometimes far from there self imposed morals. The corporations that make up the religions and write the morals are just like the free market corporations of the world proctecting there own and having two standards one for them and one for the laymen. You certainly can't believe that all the bad morals come from atheists.

Or do you speak of the mythical religions which have no problems and the morals are impectable and treat all peoples with respect.

 

[footprints]

Earlier you stated as Religions are the only way to have morals but these statements seem for counter that.

From my standpoint, Humans created all that we have today and while there is bad stuff most of what we have is good. You yourself seem to agree with this. If there is mostly good stuff on the earth and we have multiple religions and atheists all together why is it only religions create morals. Are all the atheists creating the bad things that happen in the world. Don't even the religious stray and sometimes far from there self imposed morals. The corporations that make up the religions and write the morals are just like the free market corporations of the world proctecting there own and having two standards one for them and one for the laymen. You certainly can't believe that all the bad morals come from atheists.

Or do you speak of the mythical religions which have no problems and the morals are impectable and treat all peoples with respect.

My apologies if you read Religions are the only way to have morals. Most moral values a person holds has nothing to do with religion, albeit, some may align with religious beliefs. For most part the morals and values a person holds stems from their parents or guardians around them, from their friends and peers and others in life that would influence them. Many of these morals can be traced right back to base root cultures, such as the Australian aboriginal and ancient Hebrew, don't kill, don't steal, don't rape and pillage, don't abuse, don't lie, don't cheat et al. Of course when you look too far into base root cultures, you will find most of them attribute these teachings to a spiritual teacher and have just been passed from generation to generation till they reached your parents, my parents et al, who passed them onto you and me.

What I should have said, and I haven't gone back to check what I actually did say, is that Religions hold the only teachings which can make a person change and make them more tolerant, more peaceful, more loving et al. They are the only bodies who have the knowledge at this particular stage. Then referenced the paths of enlightenment to substantiate the point made.

Human intelligence is what has created the world we have today, all the good, the bad and the downright ugly in it. I can only agree with you, we have nobody else to blame or give credit to, for the world we have today, except ourselves.

 

[bobhikes]

I can only agree with you, we have nobody else to blame or give credit to, for the world we have today, except ourselves.

Ok I caught up to all your writings. I understand your views. I would like to point out I am an atheist knows there is no god and believe anyone can easily prove this if they are truthful and test all their beliefs.