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Concern about Atheism

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Rainbow Mage, Apr 2, 2010.

  1. Rainbow Mage

    Rainbow Mage Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish

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    Okay, so I've seen atheists say before that they wouldn't mind having a completely atheistic world, because they don't need religion for morals. Wouldn't that technically only work if the people in that world were good people by nature? Like what if the people were really bad, and the society started to get more and more corrupt? Then what would atheists do to get the society back to functioning?
     
  2. Tristesse

    Tristesse Well-Known Member

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    Thats why we have laws in place. And this idea of morality is actually a lot simpler than people think. To bring it into simplistic terms, I would rather not be killed or have my stuff taken, and I'm sure most of society feels the same way. So, we're going to enact laws to punish those who steal or kill etc...
     
  3. Caladan

    Caladan Agnostic Pantheist

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    I believe religion and spiritual sentiments can be much more than keeping people in check. if the only reason we need religious beliefs is to contain people so they dont hurt themselves, I think we should question the fabric and content of these dogmas.
     
  4. footprints

    footprints Well-Known Member

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    There are some unreasonable atheists in the world, that is a fact, but there are also many reasonable atheits in the world, that is also a fact.

    Any person who declares they have morals, yet in the same breath would declare they would rid the world of every other belief to leave only their own belief standing, should really question their own moral values.
     
  5. Rainbow Mage

    Rainbow Mage Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish

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    I am not disagreeing that an atheistic world would have laws to try to keep society placated, but what if that very law became corrupt? Part of religious government systems is that going beyond certain bounds in legislating laws is immoral. What happens when a atheistic government wants to be oppressive and morals are subjective so no one can hollar immoral at government oppression?
     
  6. Majikthise

    Majikthise Guest

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    I don't think a completely atheistic society would be a good (or interesting) thing at all. But it would be nice if people weren't trying to convert you all the time, or kill you in the name of thier god.:rolleyes:
     
  7. footprints

    footprints Well-Known Member

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    There would be no difference between a totally atheistic world, than the world we have now.

    That it would be better is just some atheists belief patterns saying their belief is better. It is akin to some people of Islam wanting to convert the whole world to Islam, or some Christians wanting to convert the whole world to Christianity.

    The funny thing is, atheists who think like this, believe they are different.
     
  8. Rainbow Mage

    Rainbow Mage Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish

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    I don't call people who try to convert people all the time or kill in the name of god, religious. I call them nuts.
     
  9. Autodidact

    Autodidact Intentionally Blank

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    Well, let's take a look at reality. In reality, do atheists behave less morally than religionists?
     
  10. Tristesse

    Tristesse Well-Known Member

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    Well, atheism isn't a belief system. But, america was founded as a secular government, and it seems to be doing just fine. What makes you think that if religion were gone that morals would suddenly become subjective? Wold you want to live in a corrupt society? I wouldn't. And I'm pretty sure a lot of people feel the same way, and I don't think their religion is the only reason why they don't want to live in a corrupt society.
     
  11. Rainbow Mage

    Rainbow Mage Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish

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    Yes, and another thing, I find it funny that atheists make the exact same claim as Muslims. Muslims claim we're all born Muslim, atheists claim we're all born atheist, LOL.
     
  12. Rainbow Mage

    Rainbow Mage Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish

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    But I always hear atheists saying morality is subjective. That calling rape immoral is subjective. How?
     
  13. Autodidact

    Autodidact Intentionally Blank

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    Good thing that never happens with religion-based governments!
    Why not? what would prevent us? Right now, if you happen to live in a theocracy, you cannot do this. In secular countries, you can.
     
  14. footprints

    footprints Well-Known Member

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    If nothing else, you really do get a good laugh out of people and human intelligence.
     
  15. monta

    monta .

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    lmfao
     
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  16. kadzbiz

    kadzbiz Pessimistic Optimist

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    A law can't become corrupt, just those who upkeep them can.

    I think that's funny too.
     
  17. footprints

    footprints Well-Known Member

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    Dumb, silly argument. There is for and against, in every culture on the face of the planet.
     
  18. Rainbow Mage

    Rainbow Mage Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish

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    Yes, but America's secular society happens to be built on the notion that a government can go to far, and it would be immoral. America was founded with certain notions about morals even if it is secular. What would happen in an atheistic government where morals are subjective? Would another holocaust be subjectively evil? How about population control? How about mass oppression? Would these all be subjectively immoral, so the government can do as it pleases?
     
  19. SugaCubez352

    SugaCubez352 Member

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    Yosef, you are confusing "Atheism" with "Materialism," and "Immorality."

    Just because a person is an atheist - meaning they are indifferent to or denies the existence of a god or gods - does not always mean that the atheist is a materialist or that the atheist is immoral.

    The disbelief in god really has nothing to do with the ethical conduct and behavior of a person.

    Theism and religion does not always mean a theistic person will be "moralistic" and ethical. There are many fine examples of theists and god fearing people who commit heinous crimes and perpetrate immoral behavior and use their religion or gods - or misinterpretation of religion/god - as justifications for their actions. For example consider for instance the trouble the Vaican/Church is in in regards to child molestation and cover ups.

    There are a lot of spiritually inclined atheists who are moralistic and socially conservative by natural disposition.

    How we carry ourselves, how we act, and what we do is not really borne from one's belief or disbelief in a god/gods. Such things as behavior, action, and our ethics and morals ultimately arise from our inner Ethos and inner nature.

    Ethical behavior and morals are often independent of religion.

    For example, both the Republican and Democratic Platforms have a certain amount of ethical and moralistic ideologies in them - the Republican Party more then the Dems.

    If you join the military, there will be specific sets of codes of behavior (morals) and ethical concepts to follow such as Honor, Loyalty, Duty, etc...

    Institutions sch as Freemasonry and the Boy Scouts are religions, but each teaches its members a morals and ethical conduct.

    Althoe I do value the benefits of religions, a world without religion or theism does not spell chaos and anarchy.

    Like you say, people are good by default. Like a dog is good by nature. But if you abuse the dog, and back him up into a corner, cage him up, the dog's emotions and psychology will be affected causally, and the dog will change and react very differently.

    To answer your question you would seriously have to contemplate (samadhi... vipassana) on the origins/CAUSE of unwholesome (or bad/corrupt) behavior.

    In Buddhism, we understand that there is a Cause to everything (karma). Our thought influences our emotions... and those emotions governs our actions. Such that what acts (karma) we commit in the world of causal phenomena has its cause/origins.

    Thus bad actions just do not come into being because of a lack in the belief in gods. Blaming our karma, bad actions, and the fruits of such actions is only part of the problem, i.e.: blaming the world's "evils" on a "Satan."

    For example as to where "bad" actions come. We can say that killing and treason and crime are "bad." Then when we look at something like the American Revolution where colonialists were killing British soldiers, committing crimes and reason against the crown of England; we can see that such acts are borne from the colonialists Mind... the thoughts and emotions... thoughts of liberty, and the desire to be free from tyranny. Therefore their acts are not borne from atheism or a lack in a belief in gods.

    This is only one example. I'm sure you can get yourself to think of more if you seriously wish to understand the actual cause of immorality and unethical actions.
     
    #19 SugaCubez352, Apr 2, 2010
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2010
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  20. Tristesse

    Tristesse Well-Known Member

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    Atheism isn't a world view. It's an answer to a single question. So, it can't be a system of government. If you're just asking what would happen in a society where the morals are subjective, than I would say, that morals are subjective to a certain degree. We make judgments all the time on whats right and whats wrong, and what some societies deem as correct others deem as incorrect. It was only about 150 years ago that people thought slavery was moral and correct, we now have an understanding that owning another person as property is immoral. So, morality is constantly changing and evolving. So, it's not like morality is this all encompassing entity.
     
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