Christmas & Santa are agents of evil sent by Satan the Devil

[Ronald]

It reminds me of some verses, written by Paul I believe ( I'll see if I can find the verses later ), in a New Testament book. He was writing to a group of believers concerning whether it was ok to eat meat sacrificed to idols. Basically, he left the choice up to the individual believer. He didn't say eating such meat was sinful---all he warned against was causing another believer to stumble. I think sometimes we overanalyze things. I think we should stop overanalyzing, and just leave it up to God to show others whether or not celebrating Christmas is ok. Celebrating or not celebrating shouldn't be forced on anybody. Celebrating Christmas is not akin to those clear-cut laws like, Do not steal, Do not lie, Do not murder, etc, etc. It's a bit different...

Hope, you need to keep reading to the end of Pauls statement;
1Cor8:10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol’s temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;1Cor8:11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
My, My, to me it seems Paul has called it a sin! I seem to recall Jesus saying something like this;
Lu 17:2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
So you feel lucky today, offend one of these little ones! :tsk:

 

[Feathers in Hair]

Hope, you need to keep reading to the end of Pauls statement;
1Cor8:10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol’s temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;1Cor8:11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
My, My, to me it seems Paul has called it a sin! I seem to recall Jesus saying something like this;
Lu 17:2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
So you feel lucky today, offend one of these little ones! :tsk:

So guess who's saying it is a sin? Not Christ, Paul. And I would think long and hard before I inferred that Hope was anything less than the spectacular person she is.

 

[Hope]

Ronald, I think you missed Paul's point. He did not say eating the meat itself was a sin. Let's compare this 'eating the meat' to 'celebrating Christmas.' The sin part is in reference to causing a weaker brother to stumble. Not to the actual eating of the meat. Basically what Paul is trying to get across is to show love and respect for fellow believers by being sensitive to them, and their weaknesses. Here's another example---suppose I know a fellow believer who has struggled with alcoholism in the past, or perhaps they are just against drinking alcohol completely, taking them to a bar to buy them a beer, or simply drinking in front of them, would be disrespectful to them and might possibly cause them to stumble. That, my friend, is the sin! It's the same principle with celebrating Christmas. If I was celebrating Christmas, and I knew another believer who didn't, I wouldn't invite them over to help decorate my Christmas tree, or to a nativity play, or whatever. I would be respectful and sensitive to their beliefs about Christmas. Everyone has differing convictions regarding certain things---whether it be celebrating certain holidays, drinking alcohol, eating certain foods, watching certain TV shows, dressing a certain way....whatever. Yes, God has made clear His laws in the major areas of life---I don't believe in relative morality. However, in some things, it's all open to interpretation and personal conviction. God doesn't say in the Bible that we shouldn't watch TV, or give us a list of foods we should eat that will make us more 'righteous.' In these types of things, we ought to look to Him directly, and what He says to us personally, as everyone is different, and has different strengths and weaknesses. Therefore, what I am basically trying to say is, the sin here is not 'celebrating Christmas' or 'drinking alcohol' or 'watching TV.' The sin is causing another believer to go against their conscience---to impose on them or try to influence them.

 

[Hope]

[/font]But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ

Ronald, Ronald....read this verse more carefully please!!

Thank you, Feathers, for the kind words!

 

[SoulTYPE]

I inferred that Hope was anything less than the spectacular person she is.

1) Feathers wouldn't say anything bad about Hope or anyone.

2)Hope IS spectacular, both to look at and as a personality.

 

[Hope]

I hope the 'spectacular to look at' with the is meant as a compliment, and not that I'm so spectacularly unusual-looking that I frighten people!!:biglaugh:

 

[Ronald]

Hope, I am afraid it is you who misunderstood Paul. Take off the Christian blinders an look at it with new eyes. In no uncertain terms Paul says that person sinned big time by sitting at the table of an idol. 1 Cor10: 21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord’s table, and of the table of devils. 22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?
I am well aware of the Christian way of teaching this. It is blatantly wrong.
But, if you are stronger than He, Go right ahead and provoke him.
Close, counts in Horseshoes. Your election depends on being obedient to the Truth (Word of God)!
Shalom/Peace

 

[linwood]

I pray that you and your family break these chains of just coming together for just Christmas.

I tire of your attitude.

If you cannot post without placing words in the mouths of others then please...don`t post.

You haven`t the courage to stand by your own convictions.
You twist the words of others in an asinine attempt to humor yourself(Because it humors no one else).
You hold the arrogance of one who has enlightenment yet you cannot bear anothers view nor can you speak your own words to describe those you hold.

You`re empty

 

[Feathers in Hair]

Hope, I am afraid it is you who misunderstood Paul.

Paul! It's Paul! If Christians were meant to follow Paul, they would be Paulians.

With things as subjective and objective as scripture and translations thereof, it is not a proper or a kind thing to say "But, if you are stronger than He, Go right ahead and provoke him." You are putting words into another person's mouth, and that is neither truthful nor nice.

 

[Hope]

Ronald, with all due respect, I must still disagree with you. Ah, the troubles that start when one takes verses out of context, and quotes only those that seem to prove one's point. I suggest you read 1 Cor. chapter 8 in its entirety before you pass judgement on me. Also, in chapter 10, please read more than the verses you quoted to me. Eating the meat itself is never referred to as sinning.

"Now concerning things sacrificed to idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge makes arrogant, but love edifies.....Therefore, concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in this world, and that there is no God but one....However, not all men have this knowledge; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled. But food will not commend us to God; we are neither the worse if we do not eat, nor the better if we do eat. But take care lest this liberty of yours [liberty, Ronald! liberty to eat aforsaid meat!] somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. For if someone sees you, who have knowledge [the knowledge that the eating of meat sacrificed to idols is, in itself, not wrong, because idols are actually nonexistent entities---see above], dining in an idol's temple, will not his conscience, if he is weak, be strengthened to eat things sacrificed to idols? For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died. And thus, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ [there's the sin, Ronald]. Therefore, if food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, that I might not cause my brother to stumble." ~1 Cor. 8

I'd quote the whole chapter 10 as well, but I'll just let you read it for yourself. I am not stronger than Christ, would never claim to be. All I'm doing is reading the Scripture---and apparently you are not seeing what I am seeing....

Peace to you....

 

[Hope]

I pray that you and your family break these chains of just coming together for just Christmas. :162:

A celebration that's supposed to be about Jesus' birth but it's not because he wasn't born on the 25th of December... invented by false Christians, etc.

Just in case you did not read my posts in their entirety ( it sounds as if you didn't ), my family does NOT 'celebrate' Christmas, and never has. To pass judgement on my family just because we still get together and have a meal and fellowship is utterly ridiculous. And we don't 'come together' just for Christmas---we do the same for Thanksgiving. I suppose this is wrong too, in your eyes. If such gatherings are 'chains', then they are chains I am more than willing to stay bound by....

Judge not, lest ye be judged....I pray God opens your eyes to the spiritual arrogance you are displaying...:tsk:

 

[Ronald]

Ronald, with all due respect, I must still disagree with you. Ah, the troubles that start when one takes verses out of context, and quotes only those that seem to prove one's point. I suggest you read 1 Cor. chapter 8 in its entirety before you pass judgement on me. Also, in chapter 10, please read more than the verses you quoted to me. Eating the meat itself is never referred to as sinning.

You are so right on context, what you forget is you take Paul out of his context, Paul is a Hebrew Rabbi, a Torah observant Jew, He never ever tells anyone he can Sin. Paul is not a hypocrite, he did not go against the Church leadership as the Church of today suggests. If Paul tell you to obey those over you, then thumbs his nose at the leaders of the Church, he is a blattant hypocrite.
Acts 15:20 but should write to them to abstain from the pollutions of idols and from unchastity and from what is strangled and from blood.

"Now concerning things sacrificed to idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge makes arrogant, but love edifies.....Therefore, concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in this world, and that there is no God but one....However, not all men have this knowledge; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled. But food will not commend us to God; we are neither the worse if we do not eat, nor the better if we do eat. But take care lest this liberty of yours [liberty, Ronald! liberty to eat aforsaid meat!] somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. For if someone sees you, who have knowledge [the knowledge that the eating of meat sacrificed to idols is, in itself, not wrong, because idols are actually nonexistent entities---see above], dining in an idol's temple, will not his conscience, if he is weak, be strengthened to eat things sacrificed to idols? For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died. And thus, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ [there's the sin, Ronald]. Therefore, if food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, that I might not cause my brother to stumble." ~1 Cor. 8

Just why doesn't Paul say ours, if he means we all have that Liberty? It is the Greek Gnostics, Paul is making fun of! "This liberty of Yours!" Is absolutely a sin.
All the white wash you can put on this will never change the truth.
Ga 5:20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
Col 3:5 ¶ Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.
1Pe 4:3 For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles——when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries.
Re 2:14 But I have a few things against you: you have some there who hold the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, that they might eat food sacrificed to idols and practice immorality.
But, I will accept your "Don't confuse me with the facts! My mind is made up."

Peace to you....

Shalom to you also, Hope.

 

[Hope]

Ronald, my mind is not 'made up.' I am willing to be wrong. Nor am I 'whitewashing' anything. I am merely reading what the Scriptures say. I don't see how Paul was addressing the Greek gnostics in those verses. How do you get that? As far as I know he was addressing the Corinthian believers. That's why it's called the letter to the Corinthians, isn't it?? You accused me of having blinders on, but I wonder if you might have some blinders on yourself....?

Peace....

 

[Hope]

Ronald, you are the one calling that 'liberty' a sin, not Paul. If Paul is making fun of someone, then he is making fun of himself and every believer who realizes their freedom in Christ. It just seems to me you are not reading the same verses I am....

 

[SoulTYPE]

This is what I am talking about. If two Christians argue over the scriptures, then they aren't all that it's cracked up to be then. (The scriptures, not the people)

 

[Ronald]

Hope, Just what do you think Gnostic means? (Knowledge makes arrogant) gnosis/knowledge in Greek. Why did Paul say Your liberty if he meant our liberty? Sorry, Hope, That Dogma wont hunt!
One has to agree that the Torah was nailed to the cross, to accept you may remain in sin.
My savior said on numerous occations,"go and sin no more."

 

[dan]

This is what I am talking about. If two Christians argue over the scriptures, then they aren't all that it's cracked up to be then. (The scriptures, not the people)

No, it's the people. Yours is a ridiculous statement. People still argue overthe earth being flat, that doesn't mean we throw all of science out the window.

 

[Hope]

I will cease to argue about this with you, Ronald. I've read and re-read the verses and still don't see where you are coming from. As Paul also said, "All things are lawful, but not all are profitable". I never said we should be idolators, or anything like that---all I was doing was comparing the whole "Christmas is evil" scenario with "eating meat sacrificed to idols is evil" scenario. Please don't put words in my mouth that were never there. Or judge me. I am not judging you. If I am wrong in my interpretation of Scripture, then may God show me...you have not convinced me in your interpretation.

Peace....no hard feelings.....

 

[Hope]

One has to agree that the Torah was nailed to the cross, to accept you may remain in sin.
My savior said on numerous occations,"go and sin no more."

Christians are under a new covenant, not under the Law. We are under grace. Not that we should sin all the time---absolutely not---but the letter of the law no longer controls us. It is Christ's Spirit within us that guides us, if we allow Him to, and He helps us not to sin. Absolutely Jesus said not to sin---He even commanded us to be perfect, as He is perfect! Whoa! Who among us can accomplish that? The only way we can not sin, and even attempt to be 'perfect' is not through our own efforts, but by allowing Him to do it through us. He did not command us to never sin or be perfect thinking we could actually do that on our own! He knew we wouldn't be able to, and that's why there's grace, and a new covenant. If we managed to never sin through our own efforts, then we would become puffed up with pride. It's only by realizing we can never achieve God's standards on our own, that we can come to Him humbly, and ask Him to do it in us. And He will....

 

[Scuba Pete]

AMEN! Sister Hope!