DavidFirth
Well-Known Member
But the Christian idea is that the previous covenant has been anulled. So, which covenant/s?
Read the book of Romans. Paul covers it explicitly.
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
But the Christian idea is that the previous covenant has been anulled. So, which covenant/s?
Christians and Christian churches have extremely wide differences in beliefs. However, when it comes to the Bible, an unbiased harmonious interpretation of all scripture reveals what is.
For sure, the Israelis were God's chosen people. Now, they are no longer God's chosen people. The Mosaic Law, the Torah, while valid for the old nation of Israel, is not in effect for Christians. Even modern strict practicing Jews cannot uphold the law for the priesthood is gone, there is no proof anymore of who is highpriest, of who belongs to the tribe of Levi, there is no temple, and the laws regarding temple worship cannot be implemented.
When God invalidated the Mosaic Law, he did so in a way that could not be ignored by the Jews by making it impossible for them to keep its laws were they even willing to try. In the deportation to Babylon, those who lost proof of being of the tribe of Levi could no longer practice the priesthood. Now, it has become impossible.
What we have then is the Mosaic Law, call it the Old Covenant here. With Christ, a New Covenant was introduced. Naturally, it contains many of the laws of the OC - such as the 10 commandments, and what is basic for human life. So, Christians didn't become lawless; rather, they received a superior law, one with mercy.
In this Law of Faith, New Covenant, all gentile as well as Jew - may approach God through baptism into Jesus to get the benefit of the ransom. Thus, the people of God is a righteous nation of people consisting of people from all nations who have sanctified themselves by means of the blood of the Lamb, Christ, doing so they must live holy lives in Christ so as not to become damned, disapproved by God and Christ.
the Jews are "chosen" because the Messiah comes through the Jewish line. Even the Jews believe that the Messiah comes viaI've often heard Christians say that the Jews are G-d's Chosen People. Whilst I, of course, agree, I'm not sure what they mean by this. If the Torah has been made invalid (G-d forbid) by Jesus' sacrifice and the prophecies fulfilled, how exactly are the Jews, in Christian theology, anymore a Chosen People than the Christians?
Thanks.
He fulfilled none of the prophecies.Why do you no longer believe Jesus is the Messiah?
Didn't think they were. Christ redeemed humanity. All of it.how exactly are the Jews, in Christian theology, anymore a Chosen People than the Christians?
It is laughable parochial drivel.Frankly I think the idea of a "chosen people" is a tribalistic/nationalistic concept that, in my opinion, has no barring on reality.
Obviously, we shall not see eye to eye on this. However, ponder this:The Moasaic Law can never be invalidated and G-d will never reject His people Israel.
There is a verse in the prophets that says Israel will be without sacrifices and so on. The Messiah will build the 3rd Temple etc. and bring sacrifices.Obviously, we shall not see eye to eye on this. However, ponder this:
1 Kings 19:18 And I have let seven thousand remain in Israel, all the knees that have not bent down to Ba′al, and every mouth that has not kissed him.”
Psalm 106:24-26 And they got to contemning the desirable land; They had no faith in his word. 25 And they kept grumbling in their tents; They did not listen to the voice of Jehovah. 26 So he proceeded to raise his hand [in an oath] concerning them, That he would make them fall in the wilderness,
Only the obedient ones were permitted to survive, the ones who had faith in God. He kills all the evildoers and those without faith.
He is also not the God only of Israel, but of all humanity. So, rather than reject Israel, he has widened the scope of those he calls Israel. In this manner, it is not of the flesh but of the hearth, one becomes of Israel - spiritual Israel. All, Jew or Gentile, may become one of God's chosen people now, if they obey and have faith.
I don't expect you to agree. However, you totally avoided my points about the temple and the priesthood.
I've often heard Christians say that the Jews are G-d's Chosen People. Whilst I, of course, agree, I'm not sure what they mean by this. If the Torah has been made invalid (G-d forbid) by Jesus' sacrifice and the prophecies fulfilled, how exactly are the Jews, in Christian theology, anymore a Chosen People than the Christians?
Thanks.
Yes, I know the OT well. Again, we cannot see eye to eye. You look at this with a simple interpretation that fits your nation of Israel. Because of my belief in Christ and the NT, I believe that God is not for Israel alone, but is for all mankind. As He promised Abraham: (Genesis 18:18) " . . .all the nations of the earth must bless themselves by means of him. . ."There is a verse in the prophets that says Israel will be without sacrifices and so on. The Messiah will build the 3rd Temple etc. and bring sacrifices.
Hosea 3:4-
For the children of Israel shall dwell many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or pillar, without ephod or household gods.
Yes, I know the OT well. Again, we cannot see eye to eye. You look at this with a simple interpretation that fits your nation of Israel. Because of my belief in Christ and the NT, I believe that God is not for Israel alone, but is for all mankind. As He promised Abraham: (Genesis 18:18) " . . .all the nations of the earth must bless themselves by means of him. . ."
Again, Messiah is not needed for anyone, Jew or goy, to obtain forgiveness. The people of Nineveh were warned by Jonah to repent, which they did and they were spared. They were a nation of non-Jews.In this then, by means of Messiah, the Lamb of God, forgiveness is obtained for all, Jew and Gentile, righteous person. (Isaiah 53:12, please read the chapter) "and was numbered with the transgressors: yet he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."
Israel in the prophecies of Isaiah and others - that still will be fulfilled in ours time and later refer to Israel as all earth, all nations. All nations who survive the destruction of the wicked in Armageddon, that is.
And this hasn't happened. It's supposed to happen when Messiah comes. Which he clearly hasn't.The following quote is a bit long, but please read it. It is about the Messianic Kingdom:
Ps 72:2 He will judge thy people with righteousness, And thy poor with justice. 3 The mountains shall bring peace to the people, And the hills, in righteousness. 4 He will judge the poor of the people, He will save the children of the needy, And will break in pieces the oppressor. 5 They shall fear thee while the sun endureth, And so long as the moon, throughout all generations. 6 He will come down like rain upon the mown grass, As showers that water the earth. 7 In his days shall the righteous flourish, And abundance of peace, till the moon be no more. 8 He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, And from the River unto the ends of the earth.
Ps 37: 10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: Yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and he shall not be. 11 But the meek shall inherit the land, And shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.
And this hasn't happened yet either. So your messiah failed.So, while the Word of God, the inspired utterances of God came through the Jews, the Messiah sprang from their flesh, the tribe of Judah, the King of David - all earth shall become Israel in a spiritual sense. As Daniel says:
2: 44 And in the days of those kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed, nor shall the sovereignty thereof be left to another people; but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Please read chapter 7 of Daniel by yourself. You will see that God no longer considers only the small part of earth where the nation of Israel is. All earth
shall become Paradise, Israel, ruled by the king of God sitting on King David's throne.
I've often heard Christians say that the Jews are G-d's Chosen People. Whilst I, of course, agree, I'm not sure what they mean by this. If the Torah has been made invalid (G-d forbid) by Jesus' sacrifice and the prophecies fulfilled, how exactly are the Jews, in Christian theology, anymore a Chosen People than the Christians?
Thanks.
We'll just have to agree to disagree. Personally, I am expecting the foretold Great Tribulation to begin any day now, within a certain framework. Already, there are reports of sightings of the sign of Christ, though, it remains 3rd person stuff not well enough verified.And this hasn't happened yet either. So your messiah failed.
Again see here for the Jewish perspective. I am quite clear on the Christian perspective. I spent years as a Christian.
They're the people God chose to reveal the Messiah (Moshiach) through.I've often heard Christians say that the Jews are G-d's Chosen People. Whilst I, of course, agree, I'm not sure what they mean by this. If the Torah has been made invalid (G-d forbid) by Jesus' sacrifice and the prophecies fulfilled, how exactly are the Jews, in Christian theology, anymore a Chosen People than the Christians?
Thanks.
It originated from them because G-d chose themWhat a coincidence that a god of a religion would choose the people from which that religion originated.