• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Chosen People and Christianity.

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
That the Jews are a people chosen, set apart to be His, to be party to His covenants and to be the beneficiary of and channel for His graces, etc.

But the Christian idea is that the previous covenant has been anulled. So, which covenant/s?
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
But the Christian idea is that the previous covenant has been anulled.
The situation of the "old" covenant is far from a closed question in Christian theology. There are a wide range of views.
 

Magus

Active Member
You clearly can't even be bothered to look at my religious label. I am not a Jew.

The book of Deuteronomy and Genesis target Jews. It was given at Mt Sinai from G-d to the Jewish people. Of course they were not called 'Jews' then, because this term comes from 'Judah', one of the surviving tribes after the exile. We call them that in modern times, because the Judahites (mixed with Benjamites, iirc) are the only Hebrew tribes we know right now, the ten others are 'lost'. So of course Torah doesn't say 'Jews' because Torah isn't just for the tribe of Judah. It's for those who ere there and recieved it at Mt Sinai and this is all the 12 Tribes.


How do you know the Book of Deuteronomy and Genesis was targeting Jews ? Moses wasn't Jewish, the Hebrew scriptures makes a distinction between 'Jew' and 'Israelite ' , Maybe
it was targeting the 'Zoroastrian' colonists carving a piece of Canaan for themselves.

If you read Ezra 1:2 , 'G-d' seems to have made a covenant with King Cyrus of Persia, did God hand over the Land of Israel to the Persians thus severing the covenant with Chaldeans? ( is that who Abraham was) , alike Nebuchadnezzer II.

Is that why Jews hate Persians?
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
How do you know the Book of Deuteronomy and Genesis was targeting Jews ? Moses wasn't Jewish, the Hebrew scriptures makes a distinction between 'Jew' and 'Israelite ' , Maybe
it was targeting the 'Zoroastrian' colonists carving a piece of Canaan for themselves.

If you read Ezra 1:2 , 'G-d' seems to have made a covenant with King Cyrus of Persia, did God hand over the Land of Israel to the Persians thus severing the covenant with Chaldeans? ( is that who Abraham was) , alike Nebuchadnezzer II.
G-d makes temporary covenants with different people. He used different nations for His various purposes. But he gave His eternal Torah to the 12 Tribes of Jacob. They are the ones who have had Torah, handed Torah down to their children, died rather than convert and have unbroken chains of Rabbis who taught Torah. If any other peoples had been given Torah, it would be mentioned in their histories, inscribed somewhere etc., but we hear of no such thing. It is only the Jewish people who have the Torah and followed Torah. We can go back to the time of the exile and hear of the Jewish people keeping the Torah. Not the Persians, not the Babylonians, not the Assyrians.

Why have you put Zoroastrian in quotes?
 

Magus

Active Member
G-d makes temporary covenants with different people. He used different nations for His various purposes. But he gave His eternal Torah to the 12 Tribes of Jacob. They are the ones who have had Torah, handed Torah down to their children, died rather than convert and have unbroken chains of Rabbis who taught Torah. If any other peoples had been given Torah, it would be mentioned in their histories, inscribed somewhere etc., but we hear of no such thing. It is only the Jewish people who have the Torah and followed Torah. We can go back to the time of the exile and hear of the Jewish people keeping the Torah. Not the Persians, not the Babylonians, not the Assyrians.

Why have you put Zoroastrian in quotes?


But who 'specifically' had the Torah? not a Jew, but someone named 'Ezra', the Persians gave Ezra (a Persian chancellor) the Torah and he presented it to the colonists, whom gave the Persians the Torah Mesha ( Wisdom of Ahura )

I bring up Zoroastrians, for people never do, they most likely pretending they don't exist, Jews hate Persians, so they must hate Zoroastrians too.

King Cyrus, Darus and Artaxerxes are Zoroastrians.

Ezra 7:11 - Now this is the copy of the letter that the king Artaxerxes gave unto Ezra the priest, the scribe, even a scribe of the words of the commandments of the LORD, and of his statutes to Israel - (12) Artaxerxes, king of kings, unto Ezra the priest, a scribe of the law of the God of heaven, perfect peace, and at such a time

These people are not Jews, they are Zoroastrians, why would 'G-d' be so friendly to so called 'Pagans' ( King Cyrus)

Are Zoroastrians idolatrous pagans?

Ezra 1:2 Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth.
If Cyrus was Zoroastrian, does that mean 'Ahura Mazda' gave him ALL the Kingdoms of the Earth'

2 Samuel 22:11 ( a faravahar )
And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: and he was seen upon the wings of the wind.
faravahar.jpg


There is more evidence for Zoroastrians to be the ones.
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
But who 'specifically' had the Torah? not a Jew, but someone named 'Ezra', the Persians gave Ezra (a Persian chancellor) the Torah and he presented it to the colonists, whom gave the Persians the Torah Mesha ( Wisdom of Ahura )

I bring up Zoroastrians, for people never do, they most likely pretending they don't exist, Jews hate Persians, so they must hate Zoroastrians too.

King Cyrus, Darus and Artaxerxes are Zoroastrians.

Ezra 7:11 - Now this is the copy of the letter that the king Artaxerxes gave unto Ezra the priest, the scribe, even a scribe of the words of the commandments of the LORD, and of his statutes to Israel - (12) Artaxerxes, king of kings, unto Ezra the priest, a scribe of the law of the God of heaven, perfect peace, and at such a time

These people are not Jews, they are Zoroastrians, why would 'G-d' be so friendly to so called 'Pagans' ( King Cyrus)

Are Zoroastrians idolatrous pagans?

Ezra 1:2 Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth.
If Cyrus was Zoroastrian, does that mean 'Ahura Mazda' gave him ALL the Kingdoms of the Earth'

2 Samuel 22:11 ( a faravahar )
And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: and he was seen upon the wings of the wind.
faravahar.jpg


There is more evidence for Zoroastrians to be the ones.

So you have an agenda. I see that now. Have fun.

By the way, you are talking to an ex-Zoroastrian.
 

Magus

Active Member
Judaism and Noahide are based on the Talmud, not the Torah. In other word, they hijack the Torah for there own self interest and agenda. they are no seven laws of Noah for the Torah doesn't say anything about it.

Noah built a Cube (Ka'ba-ye Zartosht ), (Holy of the Holies) ( Kaaba) , everything as an origin in the original religion.
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
Judaism and Noahide are based on the Talmud, not the Torah. In other word, they hijack the Torah for there own self interest and agenda. they are no seven laws of Noah for the Torah doesn't say anything about it.

Noah built a Cube (Ka'ba-ye Zartosht ), (Holy of the Holies) ( Kaaba) , everything as an origin in the original religion.

You know nothing about Judaism. Please stop embarrassing yourself.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Mainstream Christian theology stipulates that Christians are Jews.
Spiritual Israelites, not Jews.

The way that Catholic and Orthodox Christians interpret it are that the promises of Israel were inherited by the Church. Non-Christian Jews are viewed as fallen away right now but will eventually see the error of their ways in the future and repent.
 

Magus

Active Member
You know nothing about Judaism. Please stop embarrassing yourself.

Judaism is the religion of the Talmud, Flavius Josephus doesn't name a religion called 'Judaism, instead he simply lists three sects

'Pharisee, Sadducee and Essene' (Sects of Zoroastrianism), His sect was Pharisee (Farsi ) which is equates with Platonism, Plato himself was influenced by Zoroaster, who was also accused of plagiarising Zoroaster. Christianity is based on Pharisee-Plato philosophy.

Jesus said, "I have cast fire upon the world, and look, I'm guarding it until it blazes.
Jesus said, "Whoever is near me is near the fire
Matthew 3:11 - Baptism with Fire

Zoroastrians should know FIRE is the symbol of purity, which was obviously misunderstood as being literal , so it mutated into the belief of Hell Fire, where people are purified of there sins.

Your the one not knowing anything about Zoroastrianism or History,
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
Spiritual Israelites, not Jews.

The way that Catholic and Orthodox Christians interpret it are that the promises of Israel were inherited by the Church. Non-Christian Jews are viewed as fallen away right now but will eventually see the error of their ways in the future and repent.
"It is thus possible for a person to be a Jew religiously (because he has accepted Christianity, the completed form of the Jewish faith) but not be a Jew ethnically. This is the case with most Christians today."
If Jesus was a Jew, why are we Catholic? | Catholic Answers
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
Judaism is the religion of the Talmud, Flavius Josephus doesn't name a religion called 'Judaism, instead he simply lists three sects

'Pharisee, Sadducee and Essene' (Sects of Zoroastrianism), His sect was Pharisee (Farsi ) which is equates with Platonism, Plato himself was influenced by Zoroaster, who was also accused of plagiarising Zoroaster. Christianity is based on Pharisee-Plato philosophy.

Jesus said, "I have cast fire upon the world, and look, I'm guarding it until it blazes.
Jesus said, "Whoever is near me is near the fire
Matthew 3:11 - Baptism with Fire

Zoroastrians should know FIRE is the symbol of purity, which was obviously misunderstood as being literal , so it mutated into the belief of Hell Fire, where people are purified of there sins.

Your the one not knowing anything about Zoroastrianism or History,

I don't care for Christian Testament quotes.

Yes, Plato was influenced a lot by Zarathustra. But Plato was not a Jew.

Can you prove anything of what you are saying?

'Pharisee' has an Aramaic root meaning 'separated'. The Farsi = Pharisee connexion is a false etymology; I had heard of it when I practiced Zoroastrianism.

Also, your comments about the Talmud lack understanding. Whilst I will be the first to say I am not nearly as well acquainted with the Talmud as any practicing Jew would be, it is hardly the entire basis of Judaism. It enumerates on what it means to 'do no work' on Shabbos, for instance. What is work? How is it defined? It goes into all those details. It preserves Rabbinic discussion and various opinions on Torah verses. Without Talmud, some verses in Torah would be much harder to follow since what exactly is meant by verses like Deut. 6:8,

"You shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes."

As you are a Jain, I can't really see why any of this has any relevance to you though.
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
I've often heard Christians say that the Jews are G-d's Chosen People. Whilst I, of course, agree, I'm not sure what they mean by this. If the Torah has been made invalid (G-d forbid) by Jesus' sacrifice and the prophecies fulfilled, how exactly are the Jews, in Christian theology, anymore a Chosen People than the Christians?

Thanks.


Frankly I think the idea of a "chosen people" is a tribalistic/nationalistic concept that, in my opinion, has no barring on reality.
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
I put it like this...

Just as the Muslims believe they have the perfect dictation of God's instructions for mankind, just as Christians believe their Jesus is the way, just as Jews believe they are chosen people of God, and just as Genghis Khan thought he was the punishment of God. All nations of this caliber believe they have some sort of special relationship with the divine.
 

Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
I've often heard Christians say that the Jews are G-d's Chosen People. Whilst I, of course, agree, I'm not sure what they mean by this. If the Torah has been made invalid (G-d forbid) by Jesus' sacrifice and the prophecies fulfilled, how exactly are the Jews, in Christian theology, anymore a Chosen People than the Christians?

Thanks.
Christians and Christian churches have extremely wide differences in beliefs. However, when it comes to the Bible, an unbiased harmonious interpretation of all scripture reveals what is.

For sure, the Israelis were God's chosen people. Now, they are no longer God's chosen people. The Mosaic Law, the Torah, while valid for the old nation of Israel, is not in effect for Christians. Even modern strict practicing Jews cannot uphold the law for the priesthood is gone, there is no proof anymore of who is highpriest, of who belongs to the tribe of Levi, there is no temple, and the laws regarding temple worship cannot be implemented.

When God invalidated the Mosaic Law, he did so in a way that could not be ignored by the Jews by making it impossible for them to keep its laws were they even willing to try. In the deportation to Babylon, those who lost proof of being of the tribe of Levi could no longer practice the priesthood. Now, it has become impossible.

What we have then is the Mosaic Law, call it the Old Covenant here. With Christ, a New Covenant was introduced. Naturally, it contains many of the laws of the OC - such as the 10 commandments, and what is basic for human life. So, Christians didn't become lawless; rather, they received a superior law, one with mercy.

In this Law of Faith, New Covenant, all gentile as well as Jew - may approach God through baptism into Jesus to get the benefit of the ransom. Thus, the people of God is a righteous nation of people consisting of people from all nations who have sanctified themselves by means of the blood of the Lamb, Christ, doing so they must live holy lives in Christ so as not to become damned, disapproved by God and Christ.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
I've often heard Christians say that the Jews are G-d's Chosen People. Whilst I, of course, agree, I'm not sure what they mean by this. If the Torah has been made invalid (G-d forbid) by Jesus' sacrifice and the prophecies fulfilled, how exactly are the Jews, in Christian theology, anymore a Chosen People than the Christians?

Thanks.
Being chosen is through covenant with god. Abraham was righteous via gods choice, not because he was sinless, nor did he need the Jesus covenant. The Christian argument is that an intermediary is needed, that if god would find people righteous would have to be through his son.
 
Top